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[dc3fanatic]

Give me a break man! the "proof of the pudding is in the eating" means simply that you can see the end result for yourself by testing the damn thing.

are you that naieve?

Go test the waters and see what transpires, ask those who are actually effected by the fiasco. I happen to be closely associated with the front line and the picture is ugly to say the least.

So you believe whatever the government and corporate america publishes? I guess the color of the koolaid makes no difference to you, as long as its real sweet.

I'll be one of the first to admit that it would be great to ensure that everyone on the front line is well paid, doesn't work excessive hours and gets bonuses like a number of the VPs in this industry.

The company is more than just employees. It's shareholders and customers too. I'll agree that workers are getting a raw deal today compared to 2000 wages (When everyting was grand) and benefits.

I've seen the front lines, thank you very much. If you don't like it, then leave and use those great skills for more pay somewhere else.

You can't make the judgement call off of front line experience alone. You have to consider the health of the company, stats, profitability and other factors as well. Your 'pudding' is just one view of a much bigger picture.

In 2000, United had a lot of focus on their employees, too much so, and look where it got them.

Is saying 'the proof is in the pudding' kinda like saying 'its all about me'?

Fortunately, business decisions aren't made on your 'pudding view' alone. The businesses that do that went the way of the dinosaur and will continue to do so.

 

[local 12 proud]

I'll be one of the first to admit that it would be great to ensure that everyone on the front line is well paid, doesn't work excessive hours and gets bonuses like a number of the VPs in this industry.

The company is more than just employees. It's shareholders and customers too. I'll agree that workers are getting a raw deal today compared to 2000 wages (When everyting was grand) and benefits.

I've seen the front lines, thank you very much. If you don't like it, then leave and use those great skills for more pay somewhere else.

You can't make the judgement call off of front line experience alone. You have to consider the health of the company, stats, profitability and other factors as well. Your 'pudding' is just one view of a much bigger picture.

In 2000, United had a lot of focus on their employees, too much so, and look where it got them.

Is saying 'the proof is in the pudding' kinda like saying 'its all about me'?

Fortunately, business decisions aren't made on your 'pudding view' alone. The businesses that do that went the way of the dinosaur and will continue to do so.

I stand by my previous post, now go drown in your koolaid bootlicker.

 

[dc3fanatic]

I stand by my previous post, now go drown in your koolaid bootlicker.

Dear Communist Sheep,

If you want it to be all about you, then own your own company and stop working for a public company or someone else.

Hey Red, I look forward to reading your posts all about you in the near future.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

In 2000, United had a lot of focus on their employees, too much so, and look where it got them.

Excuse me if I throw up the BS flag on this one. It was a distinct LACK of focus on their employees that led to the showdown in 2000.

 

[dc3fanatic]

Excuse me if I throw up the BS flag on this one. It was a distinct LACK of focus on their employees that led to the showdown in 2000.

Sorry if I was off on my timing (2000), but UAL ownership structure and payscales were just a bad formula, which assisted in getting them to B. The 2000 slow down led to payscales that were too high, which helped push them towards B.

Personally, they should have had a more flexible pay scale that gave out more when Revenue was great and fuel was cheap and ops goals were met. Instead of flex pay, everyone got a permanent raise, which really sucked when Rev and Fuel turned.

 

[Hackman]

Very well, then the question I asked isn't relevant to you.

As I have stated, I have many good friends who used to work for the former NWA, now Scab Air. I am very aware of the history of deplorable labor relations at Scab Air, now the worst they have every been. People stay at a declining career because of time invested, and the possibility that they may be able to retire there before the sh*t hits the fan.

Again Fanatic, what do you do and for whom?

Dodge the question again Fanatic, and we can all surmise you are not giddy about your career or company either. :unsure:

 

[dc3fanatic]

As I have stated, I have many good friends who used to work for the former NWA, now Scab Air. I am very aware of the history of deplorable labor relations at Scab Air, now the worst they have every been. People stay at a declining career because of time invested, and the possibility that they may be able to retire there before the sh*t hits the fan.

Again Fanatic, what do you do and for whom?

Dodge the question again Fanatic, and we can all surmise you are not giddy about your career or company either. :unsure:

Fine. A long time ago, I used to work at US Airways. (Which doesn't mean I endorse everything that happened there) I did a whole lot of number crunching and 'stat' like work. Which is probably why I believe stats more than some.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

Sorry if I was off on my timing (2000), but UAL ownership structure and payscales were just a bad formula, which assisted in getting them to B. The 2000 slow down led to payscales that were too high, which helped push them towards B.

Personally, they should have had a more flexible pay scale that gave out more when Revenue was great and fuel was cheap and ops goals were met. Instead of flex pay, everyone got a permanent raise, which really sucked when Rev and Fuel turned.

As I said before a distinct LACK of focus.

During the ESOP UAL management made promises to both the UAL pilot group and the Mechanics group that upon the end of the ESOP, both would have a seamless agreement. "On time, On top" was the phrase.This ending decades of drawn out bitter confrontations at contract negotiations, and truly embracing the principles the ESOP was founded on.

UAL was not forced in anyway to make this promise, it was given freely during a period of record profits, and if it had indeed been followed it could have saved UAL millions and might have prevented a trip into Chapter 11.

While I cannot speak to what the pilots "might" have done, the mechanics would've settled for alot less in 2000 than they ended up getting in 2002. If UAL had followed through with their promise, not only would it have fostered higher moral in the employees, it might have also garnered UAL the trust of its employees in which it was/still is sorely lacking.

 

[dc3fanatic]

As I said before a distinct LACK of focus.

During the ESOP UAL management made promises to both the UAL pilot group and the Mechanics group that upon the end of the ESOP, both would have a seamless agreement. "On time, On top" was the phrase.This ending decades of drawn out bitter confrontations at contract negotiations, and truly embracing the principles the ESOP was founded on.

UAL was not forced in anyway to make this promise, it was given freely during a period of record profits, and if it had indeed been followed it could have saved UAL millions and might have prevented a trip into Chapter 11.

While I cannot speak to what the pilots "might" have done, the mechanics would've settled for alot less in 2000 than they ended up getting in 2002. If UAL had followed through with their promise, not only would it have fostered higher moral in the employees, it might have also garnered UAL the trust of its employees in which it was/still is sorely lacking.

Fair enough.

I will agree to a lack of focus until too much money was awarded, then it was too much focus. I was really thinking of the time after the pay scale change.

I don't disagree with your statement.

 

[Hackman]

Fine. A long time ago, I used to work at US Airways. (Which doesn't mean I endorse everything that happened there) I did a whole lot of number crunching and 'stat' like work. Which is probably why I believe stats more than some.

I see, US Air. A carrier who also has some of the worst employee relations of any airline. So are you a fan of Neil "The Butcher" Cohen? He's a great roll model for a bean counter/stat boy to aspire to. He knows how to ruin an airline, and then move on to run another into the ground while he enrichs himself in the process. Everything he touches turns to shhhi.....bankruptcy. His people skills are legendary also, must be why Dougie Stealin' brought him back to finish off Scab Air. :down: :down:

As long as the US Air employees got screwed along with those damn unions, that's all that really matters to a guy like you.

 

[local 12 proud]

Is saying 'the proof is in the pudding' kinda like saying 'its all about me'?

You seem to have missed the point entirely!

Bottom line is your a confessed bean counter/statatician and I have very little to no respect for that title..

Its not about me, its about my chosen craft which I happen to enjoy. what I don't enjoy is watching it being degraded by SCABS and management types who think aviation maintenance should go to the lowest bidder, while proclaiming thru the other side of their mouths that "Safety & Quality" Are paramount. I know better!

funny you should use united as an example of what happens when to much focus is garnered upon its employess, lets use Southwest instead shall we. You see their philosophy is quite different than yours, the employee is treated as an asset rather than a liability. One of the few management types that I actually admire and have a great deal of respect for is also the co-founder of that carrier and here is what he has to say.

“If the employees come first, then they're happy, ... A motivated employee treats the customer well. The customer is happy so they keep coming back, which pleases the shareholders. It's not one of the enduring Green mysteries of all time, it is just the way it works.â€￾
~ Herb Kelleher

"If i don't like it, then leave" you say, well thats exactly the response I expect from a bean counter company bootlick who cares only about his position in life. well guess what, When and if I decide to leave this industry it will be on my terms, but for now I will stay and fight for the Craft that I have chosen.

...and if you don't like that, you can kiss my arse.

BTW. my 'pudding view' as you put it seems to be working quite well over at SWA, I doubt they will be going the way of the dinosaur anytime soon.

 

[dc3fanatic]

Bottom line is your a confessed bean counter/statatician and I have very little to no respect for that title..

dear communist sheep

I respect the mechanics trade, but you won't mine? I chose to have zero respect for you then.

I'm not wasting my time on you, nor am I posting any of my opinion about US Airways.

BTW, Southwest has tons of highly skilled numbers crunchers and the do ALOT by the numbers and stats.

And Finally, you don't know what my philosophy is, so you can't say it's different from (or the same as) HP, NWA, UA, F9, or any other carrier.

 

[jenny@nw]

In 2000, United had a lot of focus on their employees, too much so, and look where it got them.

A friend of mine that works for United told me that it was bad business investing that got them where they are now.

go check out www.untied.com

 

[local 12 proud]

dear communist sheep

Wrong again, Im not a member nor do i support the Marxist-Leninist Party. additionally, Im not of the Ovis Aries type.

 

[local 12 proud]

I respect the mechanics trade, but you won't mine? I chose to have zero respect for you then.

Im crushed... I don't ever recall saying I have no respect for you as a person, I said I have no respect for the title of "bean counter/statistician". Just like I have the utmost respect for the title "Commander In Chief", but not necessarily the person occupying the post.

I'm not wasting my time on you, nor am I posting any of my opinion about US Airways.

all righty then...!

US Airways.. :huh: wrong again

BTW, Southwest has tons of highly skilled numbers crunchers and the do ALOT by the numbers and stats.

They also have a bunch of Highly motivated employees, who have'nt been demoralized by corrupt inept management.

And Finally, you don't know what my philosophy is, so you can't say it's different from (or the same as) HP, NWA, UA, F9, or any other carrier.

Oh I think you have illustrated quite nicely your philosophy with all the antiunion tripe you regurgitate...Now go wallow in the mud Sus Domesticus.