New B717 flying for DL

[Kev3188]

Thought this might be a kinda fun one to discuss. Lots of markets that haven't seen much-if any- M/L service for awhile...
 
http://airlineroute.net/2014/07/03/dl-717-jul14update/
 
FWIW, not a bad plane to work (ramp side). Very much reminiscent of the DC9-30...

 

[WorldTraveler]

glad you are enjoying it, Kev.

any improvements relative to the DC9?

It is a decent aircraft to fly as a passenger but nothing flashy. For the flights and markets it serves, including markets where there is no or little other mainline service, it is a welcome sight to passengers.


also noteworthy that the 717 is being heavily used to add service to markets that have not seen mainline service by any carrier for years, helping DL sell its global reach to smaller cities. since the 717 has first class service, it also allows DL to offer a first class product to cities where other carriers are still using only 50 seat RJs.

finally, the 717 is heavily ATL focused since ATL has the mass to serve a mainline aircraft from small cities but it also is being used in large markets like DTW to LGA and JFK as well as ATL-EWR where capacity discipline is important, including from NYC to Florida in off-peak periods.

there are a number of markets in the western US that are ripe for upgrades to mainline aircraft including hourly LAX-SFO Shuttle service (which does allow connections on each end unlike the Northeast Shuttle) and the 717 would seem to be the ideal aircraft to do so. The 717 is only 34 seats larger than the 76 seat large RJs - a nice transition up to mainline.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

I was thinking that the 717 would be less ATL-focused, since as you said, "ATL has the mass".  Instead, I would have thought a place like DTW would have more 717 routes, and SEA too.

 

[WorldTraveler]

that is the beauty of the 717. It is a great aircraft to upsize from RJ routes to mainline. 2 small RJs is about 1 717. It is also about 40 seats more than a large RJ.

ATL has the frequency of service to small cities and the ability to increase connectivity with an upgrade that allows the 717 to replace RJs without hurting frequency or depressing yields.

The 717 is also a great airplane for cities like DTW where it the hub isn't as large and where there are large RJs on major routes such as to JFK. Same for LGA and JFK to major cities like BOS (from JFK) and to Florida during off-peak seasons.

and then the 717 is a great aircraft for point to point operations which is why I think it will be show up in the west eventually - it was supposed to be on the new AUS-LAX route which has just started but I suspect DL thought they would be spreading the fleet - which I am not sure is even at 40 aircraft yet - too thin.

given the gate constraints at both LAX and SEA, the 717 will be a great aircraft to operate in the west where mainline service is needed but so is relatively high frequency without the large hub feed that ATL or the eastern hubs can generate.

it's interesting that the 717 is generating far more interest among aviation enthusiasts than the M90 - perhaps precisely because the M90 fits into the same markets a 320/738 would do but the 717 creates a whole new set of marketing and fleeting opportunities.

 

[737823]

I don't think BOS has seen the 717s yet but Kev's like states it's coming to JFK. I remember reading on here it may come to LGA shuttle to free up E75s for other flying. BOS sees very little MD88/90 flying for DL as it is, since 717 has common parts could that be what's keeping them out of here?

Josh

 

[robbedagain]

what struck me as odd is that the 717 will do 1 weekly flight ATL-MLB effective Aug 2  and ending Aug 9 if I read that correctly    Whats the reasoning behind that   It seems like a waste of time when they could use an Airbus or Mad Dog

 

[WorldTraveler]

my guess is that, unless DL changes the way the Shuttle operates, it won't be used on the NE Shuttle. Load factors are low as it is and the Shuttle is the first operation that gets cancelled for both DL and US when there are ATC or delay issues. The point of the Shuttle is fast, dependable transportation so if there are delays, the revenue won't fly. The same principle applies the LGA-ORD portion which is operated like the Shuttle out of the Marine Air Terminal and DL competitively operates similar reliability during delay prone days as other carriers do.

Unless DL changes the Shuttle to allow connections at DL's main LGA terminals, there is little reason to change the aircraft to the 717 - unless DL legitimately believes it will have an advantage by using a mainline product.

I personally would rather see the 717 used to open cities back to mainline and for use in the west. but others make the decisions...

robbed,
the one daily flights in some cases are to free up M80s or 320s for Caribbean and leisure flying which peaks on Saturday. DL doesn't want to give up the frequency and MLB has a heavier business component than many other Florida cities so the frequency is valuable but with less seats.

MLB was opened as a DC9 city and used to be a strong Eastern city. Kev's point about the 717 going where the DC9 once was strong is true for both the southern and northern parts of DL's route system.

 

[robbedagain]

thanks.  I flew on FL 717 yrs ago and it was a great plane

 

[Hope777]

Not sure the 717 is the ideal aircraft for EWR.  I know the agents dont like it as they lost seats at peak times for connections in ATL.  As some agents say they feel like AirTran.  They say many top tier travelers have defected to United and flying non stop.  

 

[WorldTraveler]

United flies almost entirely 50 seat regional jets. I doubt very seriously that DL has lost any customers of value.

The whole reason DL cut capacity is to increase yields.

DL has long been the dominant carrier in the ATL-EWR market and has nearly 2/3 of the local market.

 

[Hope777]

Not talking the EWR-ATL local traffic !   Going from B757's and MD88/90's down to A319's and now the 110 seat B717, they have lost the ability to service the connecting EWR-ATL Pax they once had.  But obviously you know more then the EWR Employees...

 

[WorldTraveler]

I get your point about wanting to see bigger aircraft but DL now has 2 other strong hubs at DTW and MSP.

IN the past (right before the NW merger), 70% of DL's seats from EWR were to ATL; now it is 40%.

DL has indeed cut capacity at EWR but so have other carriers and in the process average fares and profitability have gone up. That is part of the purpose of consolidation in the industry and the benefit shows up in DL employee profit sharing checks.

Further, DL now has 2 nonstops to Europe which it didn't have before; there is no other legacy carrier that has nonstop service to Europe from a hub where another legacy carrier has as much share as UA has at EWR.

DL's strategy at EWR is clearly to maximize revenue more than carry the maximum amount of passengers.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

United flies almost entirely 50 seat regional jets. I doubt very seriously that DL has lost any customers of value.
 

I get your point about wanting to see bigger aircraft but DL now has 2 other strong hubs at DTW and MSP.
 

While certainly true, that DL now has hubs at DTW and MSP to connect EWR customers, I love how Mr. Whole Truth here jumps at the chance to bash UA for flying RJs.  Looking at DL.com (for Monday July 14) the majority (6 out of 7) of DL flights between DTW-EWR are on RJs (Delta Connection).  Likewise for MSP-EWR, 3 out of the 5 daily flights are on RJs.  Ooops, I almost missed the qualifier, the DL RJ flights are not 50 seat RJs, instead they're larger RJs (i.e. E170, CRJ 700, etc), so he's stil technically correct.  DL uber alles!

 

[WorldTraveler]

I never made a statement or comparison of DL aircraft size to UA's from EWR to any other city besides ATL.

Since you did bring up EWR to DTW and MSP, DL has roughly 60% of the seats in the market compared to UA in both markets precisely because UA uses so many small RJs.

And the trend holds true for the EWR hub as a whole where about 60% of UA's flights in the eastern US are on small RJs or turboprops - not even including large RJs.

There is little incentive for other carriers to use larger aircraft if UA uses so many small RJs where it does and thus has to keep fares high in order to make the economics of small RJs viable.

and back to the topic at hand, one of the key uses of the 717s will be to mainline service in cities that have not seen mainline aircraft for years - which is exactly what is happening - by replacing multiple small RJ flights, use the 717 in mainline markets where other carriers use predominantly RJs including large RJs (ATL-ORD is also seeing 717s for the same reason), and in shuttle type service which is a role that has yet to be developed but will likely include a number of west coast markets.

given that DL hasn't even received half of the 717 fleet from WN yet, the indications of how the aircraft will be used are more than encouraging.

 

[Hope777]

I get your point about wanting to see bigger aircraft but DL now has 2 other strong hubs at DTW and MSP.

IN the past (right before the NW merger), 70% of DL's seats from EWR were to ATL; now it is 40%.

DL has indeed cut capacity at EWR but so have other carriers and in the process average fares and profitability have gone up. That is part of the purpose of consolidation in the industry and the benefit shows up in DL employee profit sharing checks.

Further, DL now has 2 nonstops to Europe which it didn't have before; there is no other legacy carrier that has nonstop service to Europe from a hub where another legacy carrier has as much share as UA has at EWR.

DL's strategy at EWR is clearly to maximize revenue more than carry the maximum amount of passengers.

EWR-AMS, NWA and KLM both flew the route on and off and DL added EWR-CDG when AF pulled out of EWR.   So YES two flights to Europe, both Sky Team Hubs.   And ask the PAX who were routed thru DTW or MSP going south how they enjoy DL now....  And what Two Mainline A/C to MSP and One to DTW..... sweet