NWA F/A's Welcome AFA

Bob,

Out of curiosity, what airline do you work for? And do you feel you are being compensated for what your labor is worth?
 
The judge overseeing NWA bankruptcy IN NO WAY enjoined the FAs from striking the carrier if the contract was indeed abrogated, additionally that ability has yet to be tested in a court of law.

Well it has.

In the United States the presumtion is that unless the law explicitely prohibits you from doing something you can do it. The RLA is clear in that once a company makes changes that constitute a major dispute that we have the right to strike, the Judge does not posess the right to make laws, he can only enforce them and the RLA is clear-if compensation has been changed we are free to self help. There are scores of examples where this has occured, there are no examples where a Judge has enjoined workers to show up for work after their contract has been abrogated and they are being paid less. Whats really sickening is that our unions are joining with the companies in insinuating that that a Judge can do that. Let me ask you this, could a Judge turn around and tell Exxon to sell fuel to the Airlines at below market costs? I mean if we want to look at what sent the airlines into a tailspin its easy to see that its fuel right? So Fuel costs have spiked upwards, some of that is because of supply, it costs more for the oil companies to buy the fuel, but at the same time the oil companies are posting record profits, in other words profiteering, but yet there is no move by the airlines to go to court in order to force the oil companies to lower their price!Why? Because there is nothing in law that would give the Judge the right to do that. The Judge can throw out a contract, he can not impose new terms. In the examples where new terms were put in place its because the unions did not challenge it, obviously the unions had met with the Judge and agreed to these terms but they needed it to sound like it was a ruling from the Judge, the Judge was acting more like an arbitrator than ruling as a Judge. The fact is there is nothing in law that would stop anyone from striking when their contract has been abrogated-in fact the law is explicit in that they can.

Most of your concessions are going straight into the oil companies pockets yet the Judge cant force them to lower their prices. They sell oil, you sell labor, if they cant force them they cant force you.
 
Bob,

Out of curiosity, what airline do you work for? And do you feel you are being compensated for what your labor is worth?
Curiosity? Really, why do you ask?

Dont you feel its hypocritical for you to request such information when you do so from an alias?
 
How do you know how many applications they recieved? Do you go by what the company says? If they didnt receieve any do you think they would admit it?
The fact is that you are simply willing to accept whatever your master throws at you.

Because they only took applications for 3 days online because they had more than enough applicants to work through. (note: this in NO WAY means they were qualified applicants, just enough to slow down the website)
 
No. What's hypocritical about it? And if I posted under my real name (Glenn Tilton) when I asked the question, why would that be different?

I do find it revealing that you won't answer the questions though. Especially the second one.

Sincerely yours,

Leo Mullin
 
Because they only took applications for 3 days online because they had more than enough applicants to work through. (note: this in NO WAY means they were qualified applicants, just enough to slow down the website)
But you are still relying on information that is under the complete control of the company.

No. What's hypocritical about it? And if I posted under my real name (Glenn Tilton) when I asked the question, why would that be different?

I do find it revealing that you won't answer the questions though. Especially the second one.

Sincerely yours,

Leo Mullin
Its hypocritical because in addition to my name you also want to know where I work yet you choose to reveal nothing about yourself.

Why would you want to know where I work? Would it change anything I've written?

The fact is Bear96 is you have the answers to both of those questions from back on the USAIR page, by the way just about everything I said was going to happen over there at USAIR did in fact happen.
 
I don't know what your name is. You post under the name "Bob Owens." Who that is, or if that is your real name, is unknown to me and unverifiable. And I didn't want to know your name. What your name is or isn't is irrelevant. If you choose to post under your name, that is your business.

May we assume you at least work for an airline in some capacity and are represented by a union?
 
I don't know what your name is. You post under the name "Bob Owens." Who that is, or if that is your real name, is unknown to me and unverifiable. And I didn't want to know your name. What your name is or isn't is irrelevant. If you choose to post under your name, that is your business.

May we assume you at least work for an airline in some capacity and are represented by a union?

Well then if I posted that I work for USAIRWAYS then that too would be irrelivant, unverifiable and unknown because as you stated my real name is unknown, so why did you ask the question in the first place?

The answer to your last two questions are Yes and sort of, I pay dues, I would not stretch it as far as to say I'm represented.
 
Finally, a little progress. (I can see why airline management has trouble communicating with unions. Sheesh.)

So you are an airline employee, covered by a CBA (at least you are "represented" that much, no?).

You still refuse to answer whether you feel compensated fairly. So let's explore the two options:

1. YES, you feel you are compensated fairly. Yet you criticize Jamake for "accepting what his master throws at him." If you feel fairly compensated, isn't it just possible that Jamake feels fairly compensated as well?

2. NO, you don't feel you are compensated fairly. Yet you criticize Jamake for "accepting what his master throws at him." If you feel you are not being compensated fairly, yet you still work for the "master," aren't you just accepting what your master throws at you too?
 
Finally, a little progress. (I can see why airline management has trouble communicating with unions. Sheesh.)

So you are an airline employee, covered by a CBA (at least you are "represented" that much, no?).

You still refuse to answer whether you feel compensated fairly. So let's explore the two options:

1. YES, you feel you are compensated fairly. Yet you criticize Jamake for "accepting what his master throws at him." If you feel fairly compensated, isn't it just possible that Jamake feels fairly compensated as well?

2. NO, you don't feel you are compensated fairly. Yet you criticize Jamake for "accepting what his master throws at him." If you feel you are not being compensated fairly, yet you still work for the "master," aren't you just accepting what your master throws at you too?

or
3. No I do not feel fairly compensated and I am doing what I can to change that.
 
How long have you been feeling that way?
So this is an interrogation, you ask and I answer.Dont think so.

The fact is that airline workers and most other rank and file workers where a multitude of workers perform similar tasks have to combine in order to maximize their compensation, one of the tactics they must use is the threat or use of the strike. While individual workers are more easily replaced a whole workforce is much more difficult. Some would cite that NWA has replaced their mechanics but thats not entirely true and it certainly was not done without costs, in fact NWAs strike with AMFA has and continues to hurt the company and the company has only been able to operate because other unionized workers, such as the IAM were willing to do struck work.

Over the years many Unions, especially in the airline industry, lost their original direction, one of the reasons for this is because the government has put in place rules that keep corrupt unions and corrupt leaders in place. Another is the AFL-CIO. Its very difficult for members to change unions and accountability is nonexistant in many unions. That does not mean that unionism is bad, it means that the structure that has perverted unions is bad. Workers need representation, and the workers should be given the option to choose their representation on a regular basis. One of the flaws in labor law is that when it comes to chosing a union if someone doesnt vote it gets counted as a no vote, well thats obscene, non votes should be looked at as what it is, a non-vote, not for or against anything. All elections are basically an option to either choose the status quo or change. A nonvote is not an expressed endorsement of either. Under these rules a politician would stay in office forever unless the majority of those eligible to vote voted for someone else. Labor representation elections should be the same way as political representation.

If a politician makes all sorts of promises and doesnt deliver he usually gets voted out, despite the fact that the majority of the electorate does not bother to vote, but with a union thats not the case. In order for a union to get a vote going they only need a 35% call for an election, however if the membership is unhappy with the performance of the union they need a 50%+1 call for another election. While unions have the resources to pay people to solicit for the 35% needed to get in, a disenchanted rank and file have to meet the much higher mark through their own efforts and expense because in order to get a new union they often have to form an entirely new organization.

So we have a situation where we have corrupt or inept leaders that are to varying degrees difficult to remove and a legal structure that in effect protects the status quo.

Unions argue against accountability by citing the fact that if they willingly grant it the cards are stacked against them-which is true because of the fact that non votes count as votes to go non-union and in this country voter turnout is usually poor. Unions also complain about the fact that non-votes are counted against at this time, but not when there is an attempt for a new representational vote .

Members often feel that even a bad union is better than no union so they accept poor representation and corrput leadership rather than being thrown to the whims of untrustworthy corporate leaders.

So what are we to do? Simply accept it? Leave, run away? What makes you think that you wont find the same problems elsewhere? The fact is if we stay we must resist. Why not do it right where we already invested many years of our lives? We must push for accountability, push for reform and force change, and eventually it will come to the point where we have to face off. It should have happened three years ago but our so called leaders where all in bed with the executives.

What happened in this industry should not have happened. The fact is that the corporate leaders of this country cashed in on the blood of the 9-11 victims. They used fear, disinformation and laws and rules that they wrote in order to tranfer huge sums of money from us to them.

The fact is that our unions also let us down. Their business plans came ahead of ideology.

We hear the airlines cite the billions they lost since 2001. Well we heard a similar tale in the early 90s. In the early 90s the airlines claimed that they lost more money in one year than the industry made in its prior 70 year existance. Now how is that possible? How could the industry have survived if that was true? Because it really wasnt true, sure they lost money, just like they have over the last few years but how much of those losses were real and how much were fabricated? And who really lost money? This time around we know who did. Over at UAL the employees owned the company, in fact they bought it, not only did they lose a big chunk of their compensation but they lost ownership as well, even though shares in UAL now sell at $35/sh.

Over at UAL they used the false crises of the early 90s to get the employees to give concessions for shares in the company, 10 years later the same people who sold them the shares at top dollar took it all back for next to nothing.

During the mid 90s many of the airlines were complaining to their employees about the tax liability that their record profits were generating, why was that? Could it be that many of the write offs were used in the early 90s to inflate losses? Things such as accelerated depreciation and other accounting gimmicks that corporations lobbied to have put in the tax code?

In 2002 AA claimed to lose $3.5 billion, yet $988 million was from "Goodwill losses" alone. They also wrote off the entire potential liablity for accumulated AAdvantage miles and they prepaid leases.

NWA was slow to get into the act, still claiming profits when everyone else was or claimed to be courting BK. When NWA saw what everyone else was walking away with all of a sudden their fortunes changed, did passenger loads all of a sudden change that much? Did Cargo drop off? Sure fuel went up but it went up for just about everyone, especially the BK carriers who could not hedge. NWA had to get in on the frenzy, so all of a sudden they were as broke as everyone else.

The fact is people we have been had. The airplanes must fly. High load factors ditate that, when we failed to shut it down, largely due to our failed unions, we lost everything that was gained over a 50 year period. Yea we still have jobs, but they have our money. If we had shut it all down we would have had both.

Unions preach unity yet they dont practice it,they allow one industry to be fractured into a totally incoherant representational structure, the move by the NWA FAs towards unity within the AFA is a step in the right direction.
 
Wow -- you sure don't like to answer simple direct questions, do you. (Or was there an answer in there somewhere? I really didn't have time to parse it all.)

I'll help you out:

Question: How long have you been feeling like you are not being paid what your labor is worth, as a unionized worker in the airline industry?

Answer: A long time.

Observation: Since you have been putting up with that for a long time with no real signs of improvement anywhere on the horizon, sounds like you have acquiesced to your master.

The point: I more or less agree with your points on unionism. But I see no real principled or material difference between your position and Jamake's. So I think it is hypocritical of you to criticize Jamake for "accepting whatever his master throws at him," when in reality you are doing the same thing. You just don't realize it (or refuse to be honest with yourself about it.)

At least Jamake is honest with himself and others about the situation, and doesn't just sit around whining about it blaming "the master."
 
Well it has.

In the United States the presumtion is that unless the law explicitely prohibits you from doing something you can do it. The RLA is clear in that once a company makes changes that constitute a major dispute that we have the right to strike, the Judge does not posess the right to make laws, he can only enforce them and the RLA is clear-if compensation has been changed we are free to self help. There are scores of examples where this has occured, there are no examples where a Judge has enjoined workers to show up for work after their contract has been abrogated and they are being paid less. Whats really sickening is that our unions are joining with the companies in insinuating that that a Judge can do that. Let me ask you this, could a Judge turn around and tell Exxon to sell fuel to the Airlines at below market costs? I mean if we want to look at what sent the airlines into a tailspin its easy to see that its fuel right? So Fuel costs have spiked upwards, some of that is because of supply, it costs more for the oil companies to buy the fuel, but at the same time the oil companies are posting record profits, in other words profiteering, but yet there is no move by the airlines to go to court in order to force the oil companies to lower their price!Why? Because there is nothing in law that would give the Judge the right to do that. The Judge can throw out a contract, he can not impose new terms. In the examples where new terms were put in place its because the unions did not challenge it, obviously the unions had met with the Judge and agreed to these terms but they needed it to sound like it was a ruling from the Judge, the Judge was acting more like an arbitrator than ruling as a Judge. The fact is there is nothing in law that would stop anyone from striking when their contract has been abrogated-in fact the law is explicit in that they can.

Most of your concessions are going straight into the oil companies pockets yet the Judge cant force them to lower their prices. They sell oil, you sell labor, if they cant force them they cant force you.


I don't disagree Bob.

I added the comment you refrenced because inevitably someone throws up the fact that all the bankrupt companies(pick one) believe a strike under these(being bankrupt) circumstances would be illegal, and state so in almost every PR statement concerning union/negotiations.

The companies seem to think because it has yet to be tried under bankruptcy, they can prevail. The question it seems they wish to force an answer on is..."does the protection of the automatic stay of bankruptcy overide the self-help provisions of the RLA?"
 

Latest posts