Question about mid-air collisions

[jason219]

Hello everyone. I'm preparing a mock press conference for one of my college classes. In my particular scenario, I am the public relations head of a top international airliner.

Three hours into the flight, one of our planes was involved in a mid-air collision (whether it was with another aircraft or another object, I am not sure). The plane is still airborne but is only able to fly higher and to the right. All attempts to make a left turn or decrease altitude have failed.

I need some expert knowledge on what would happen in this situation. Judging by the damage, is it possible to land the plane safely? Is an emergency landing feasible? If so, what would the steps necessary be to execute it and how long (roughly) would that take?

Thank you for your help!

 

[BoeingBoy]

By stipulating that the airplane can't be made to descend you've basically set up a situation where controlled descent to a landing is impossible. If all that is possible is to climb and turn right, the plane will spiral up till it can't climb any further (the absolute ceiling) and fly there turning right until it runs out of fuel or stall and literally fall to the ground. Depending on the airplane, circumstances, pilot, etc, I guess it's possible that a recovery from the stall would be possible, but that would just start the climbing spiral all over again. It's just hard to envision a successful outcome to this situation.

I'm sure that Hollywood could come up with some special effects involving another airplane lifting the right wind to stop the turn and a second airplane to lift the tail which would result in a descent. Maybe even a third extra airplane so you could have one under each wing and the tail - let the damaged plane run out of fuel then the three other planes could "carry" it to a landing site. But that's Hollywood and not reality.

You might want to read a little about the United DC10 that lost all hydraulic systems due to an uncontained engine failure, which resulted in loss of all flight controls since they're all hydraulically operated. Using varying engine thrust only, the crew landed at Sioux City, Iowa but cartwheeled after touchdown and the plane broke into sections. Yet a significant percentage of passengers survived. Any airplane can be made to descend - at worst just induce a stall and it will fall out of the air. It's the controlled descent for the landing that gets important.

Maybe stipulating a different situation is in order if you want to be able to give a briefing that allows the possibility of a better outcome.

Jim

 

[jason219]

Thanks very much for the detailed reply, Jim! It's going to help a lot. Unfortunately, this is the scenario I was given by my professor, and I can't change it for a better outcome. Apparently, it is an actual scenario experienced by some company, but in order to keep everyone from looking up the real-life counterparts to our assigned cases, he company names have been changes. Fair enough, right?

When you saw literally fall to the ground, I'm assuming you mean it would pretty much be a straight down fall? Or would it be more dropping a paper plane, and have a slight glide to it? Reason I'm asking, is this is apparently an international flight which is 3 hours in, I'm assuming that in the scenario the plane is flying over the ocean. Would landing on the water even be a reasonable option?

Could this type of damage be caused by a bird strike? Or is this pretty much 100% sure to be a collision with another aircraft?

I'm sorry I'm very ignorant when it comes to aviation. I really appreciate the help so far!

 

[mikey60]

Hello everyone. I'm preparing a mock press conference for one of my college classes. In my particular scenario, I am the public relations head of a top international airliner.

Three hours into the flight, one of our planes was involved in a mid-air collision (whether it was with another aircraft or another object, I am not sure). The plane is still airborne but is only able to fly higher and to the right. All attempts to make a left turn or decrease altitude have failed.

I need some expert knowledge on what would happen in this situation. Judging by the damage, is it possible to land the plane safely? Is an emergency landing feasible? If so, what would the steps necessary be to execute it and how long (roughly) would that take?

Thank you for your help!

By the time of your press conference the airplane would have stalled and crashed into the sea. Basically the air gets thinner as you get higher, less lift and what goes up must....So looks like you have autopilot problem. In this seniero the autothrottle and the autopilot were engauged and something maybe electrical will not let them disengauge. I will bet my new puppy this never happened by the way. IMO it would be impossible to land this airplane your prof knows it. Look outside the block for something or do what they do in corporate America, .. LIE THROUGH YOUR TEETH. Also landing in the ocean hasn't worked yet either (Sully was in the Hudson and it was very smooth). There were several unfortunate and unplanned attempts. All with fatal endings.

 

[jason219]

By the time of your press conference the airplane would have stalled and crashed into the sea. Basically the air gets thinner as you get higher, less lift and what goes up must....So looks like you have autopilot problem. In this seniero the autothrottle and the autopilot were engauged and something maybe electrical will not let them disengauge. I will bet my new puppy this never happened by the way. IMO it would be impossible to land this airplane your prof knows it. Look outside the block for something or do what they do in corporate America, .. LIE THROUGH YOUR TEETH. Also landing in the ocean hasn't worked yet either (Sully was in the Hudson and it was very smooth). There were several unfortunate and unplanned attempts. All with fatal endings.

Well the project is a crisis management situation, so I'm pretty sure, knowing what I know now, that this is going to end as a complete disaster. Still, I guess I'm going to have to go by what I know now (until I receive an update for my next "press conference"). I was also reading up on the Hudson landing, and I realized that water landings are not as easy as I had thought. I think maybe the scenario I was given is actually based on the United Airlines Flight 232 incident, as Jim pointed out above, even though mine might be a bit off track. Really not sure, but I guess that's besides the point of the project.

Basically, looks like I have to do, as you say, lie through my teeth, or at least make it look like I don't know it's going to crash yet. But I'll be using the info I learned from you both in my next speech, since I'm pretty sure this is going to end with the plane crashing. I'll have some detailed info I can use, and that'll be very helpful!

Thanks!

 

[Veritas]

Your scenario is reminiscent of the crash that took the life of pro golfer Payne Stewart.

Washington Post:

MINA, S.D., Oct. 25—A Learjet carrying professional golfer Payne Stewart and at least four others streaked uncontrolled for thousands of miles across the heart of the country today, its occupants apparently unconscious or already dead, before it plunged nose first and crashed in a field near this north-central South Dakota hamlet.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If you're stuck with the scenario, do you have the latitude of deciding it's severity? For example, the plane can only climb and turn right - a steep climb or shallow climb, sharp turn or slow turn? Is operation of the flight controls impossible, or just limited? Same for trim and the engines - any control over those? How about flaps and/or leading edge devices?

In other words is the situation such that there's nothing the crew can do to affect the flight path (which would entail flight control, trim and engine problems) or is only that the natural tendency of the plane is to climb and turn but the crew has control of something - partial flight controls, trim, engines - to use to overcome the natural tendency? Where is this happening? Even a successful landing in the N. Atlantic might result in many deaths due to the low water temperature.

Also, what instrumentation is available to the crew - normal instruments or are some of those not working either? How about time of day and weather? Daytime and good weather would help just by possibly making the horizon visible. Apparently there is some communications capability or you wouldn't know there was a problem until sometime after the crew didn't make a position report.

If there is any possibility of control, the plane could get back over land - three hours into a trans-ocean flight wouldn't put it out of range of land unless there was a pretty big drag penalty from damage or fuel leak. Depending on how much control, a reasonable landing might be possible - it could vary.

I assume that you've seen or read transcripts of press briefings in this type of situation. Assuming that you'll be doing a sequence of press briefings in class, you'll want to announce things like a special phone number for family of passengers and that sort of thing.

Jim

 

[jason219]

Thanks everyone who's helped me before! I've been able to do a pretty good job on my presentations so far.

I've received a new update, and I am a bit confused how this new scenario could even take place. I hope someone with more knowledge would be able to answer. It's very possible that this would not be possible in real life, so please don't make fun of me if it is not; this is just what my teacher has given me.

Basically, the plane is going to make an emergency landing by weighing down the nose of the plane. Apparently, filling the cargo hold with water will distribute more weight to the front and allow the plane to descend. It also says on my update that fuel will be jettisoned from the plane as it approaches the landing strip (I am assuming to get the weight from the back and wings of the plane down.)

My question is not really "is this possible?" though I am interested in that as well. But how would they get water to do this? Is there enough water stored in the tank on the plane to do something like this? How much water is typically in these water tanks?

Thanks again!

 

[bravozulu@afw]

Jason, what class are you taking? What is the reason for this type of assignment? Public speaking? Crisis management? Political science? Screenplay/ script/ creative writing? Does your professor( term used very loosely) have any scientific knowledge? This scenario reminds me of an old movie (George Kennedy as the TWA Maint Supervisor) where a hose was passed from one plane to the stricken one. BUT, any water put into either forward cargo or the E&E compartment, is an AUTO DESTRUCT sequence in process (THINK MASSIVE ELECTRICAL FAILURE) !!!! (Is) The professor is getting his students TO THINK, logically, creatively or out of the box?
IMHO, get a refund or a credit in order to take this course with a DIFFERENT PROFESSOR!!

 

[bravozulu@afw]

Jason, Boeing transport aircraft have their potable water tanks aft of the aft cargo bay. The "Blue Juice" and waste products are also carried in this area. The 767 carries 300 gallons & the 777 carries 727 gallons ( note: the water quantity indicators have been deactivated due to the measurement systems).

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'm guessing that your professor isn't very technical or aviation orientated based on the scenerios you get...

My question is not really "is this possible?" though I am interested in that as well. But how would they get water to do this? Is there enough water stored in the tank on the plane to do something like this? How much water is typically in these water tanks?

Thanks again!

As already said, the potable water and lav liquids are stored in tanks that may not be accessible in flight, but you have to assume that one or both are accessible. You also have to assume that the contents of one/both can be routed to the forward cargo compartment (note that every big plane that I know of that's big enough to use on trans-ocean flights has separate front and rear cargo compartments) - this can involve an access panel that can be opened or cutting a hole in the cabin floor with the crash axe. I'm assuming that you aren't given a figure on how much water would be required so I'd just use a "pulled from thin air" amount.

Note also that unless the plane has every seat occupied you could move passengers as far forward as possible to make the plane more nose heavy, including putting some heavier passengers in the cockpit (there are extra seats for people giving check rides to sit in). It's somewhat amazing how much difference a flight attendant walking from the rear to the front of the cabin makes. The same could be done with carry-on bags, even stacking them at the front of the cabin and using belts, neckties, or whatever is available to strap them in place. Some planes also have a tail mounted fuel tank, as you mentioned. Burning fuel from that would also shift the CG forward and lower the nose. Using these options would mean transferring less water to the cargo compartment. All of these steps should be done first in the real world since they are relatively easy compared to improvising a way to get liquids into the forward cargo compartment.

I wouldn't mention it since it seems that the desired outcome is a stable water landing, but water is self-leveling. If the plane is nose up to start with, putting liquids in the forward cargo compartment results in the water being deeper at the aft end of that compartment than at the front initially. But as water is added, the point is reached where the nose of the plane begins to come down. Guess what the water does - flows toward the front of the cargo compartment shifting the weight even more toward the nose. The nose lowers more, the water shifts more, the nose lowers more, keep repeating. So you'd have to add the water to the forward cargo compartment slowly, letting the plane reach a stable attitude before adding a little more. Otherwise, you add a lot of water, the nose goes down too much, you have to take some water out to bring the nose back up, over and over, until you stumble on the correct amount of water.

Jim

 

[jason219]

Thanks Jim, I'm going to incorporate that info for my speech today. Those all make a lot more sense to me than the water.

bravozulu@aft, this is a crisis management project for a public relations class. He claims these scenarios are based on real life events but I'm not so sure about that. He says he gets them from a book. I'm glad I've consulted this forum. I've learned quite a lot about what can and cannot happen realistically in this situation.

Once again, thanks so much to everyone that's posted. You've all been helpful.

 

[Gulfstream550]

How did everything go Jason?