Results are out: F/A seniority Intergration team

[BABABOOY]

Basically its adj senority date. giving Pre merger Delta F/A's
credit for Training. (just like Pre merger NW f/A's)
Can't wait to see what the AFA's response will be ;-)

 

[Dignity]

Basically its adj senority date. giving Pre merger Delta F/A's
credit for Training. (just like Pre merger NW f/A's)
Can't wait to see what the AFA's response will be ;-)

I agree with that recommendation..it is the right thing to do..(as long as seniority is respected as outlined and someone junior is not placed ahead of someone who is senior on a combined seniority list)

this is just my opinion, but a Flight Attendants seniority for bidding purposes(regarding a seniority list) should be the first day of training in a job classification.
... if someone has.. for example a 1977 hire date as an employee, but transferred to In-flight in 1985 they should retain their original 1977 hire date for non rev, vacation accruals, and any other benefits that would reflect that original hire date..however for the seniority list they should fall on a bidding list in another department with the transfer date of 1985. Someone should not receive an additional 8 year credit into a department they did not spend those actual 8 years working on a seniority list.

now they should sit down and resolve this seniority issue or call an election shortly after the voluntary has been completed.

there is absolutely no reason to continue this any longer than necessary.

 

[BABABOOY]

.. if someone has.. for example a 1977 hire date as an employee, but transferred to In-flight in 1985 they should retain their original 1977 hire date for non rev, vacation accruals, and any other benefits that would reflect that original hire date..however for the seniority list they should fall on a bidding list in another department with the transfer date of 1985. Someone should not receive an additional 8 year credit into a department they did not spend those actual 8 years working on a seniority list.
there is absolutely no reason to continue this any longer than necessary.

Agreed!
Right now with the NW/AFA does the above example happen? It does at
pre merger Delta. At NW Does that '77 date of hire accrue/bid for their vacation
DOH ? or Inflight Date ?

 

[tech2101]

Agreed!
Right now with the NW/AFA does the above example happen? It does at
pre merger Delta. At NW Does that '77 date of hire accrue/bid for their vacation
DOH ? or Inflight Date ?

That is the way it was with the Mechanic & Related and Ramp group while I was there. If a ramp person upgraded to Mechanic, they carried their DOH seniority with them for everything except bidding on jobs. Vacation, Non-Rev, Sick, everything was DOH; but when it came to bidding a choice location such as MCO as a Mechanic or Lead Mechanic, it was based on classification seniority (the day the person started as a Mechanic or Lead). It was not unusual for some to have 3 different seniority dates (some 4 or 5).

Kev can attest to that. I had 2 seniority dates. One was my DOH, which was also my Mechanic seniority date, then I had my Lead Mechanic date. Some had ESE, ESC, Stock Clerk, Mechanic, PMI, Inspector, Lead Inspector...

Many did not like the classification seniority when it came to Leads, but with that seniority came many headaches...

I digress...

 

[Kev3188]

That is the way it was with the Mechanic & Related and Ramp group while I was there. If a ramp person upgraded to Mechanic, they carried their DOH seniority with them for everything except bidding on jobs. Vacation, Non-Rev, Sick, everything was DOH; but when it came to bidding a choice location such as MCO as a Mechanic or Lead Mechanic, it was based on classification seniority (the day the person started as a Mechanic or Lead). It was not unusual for some to have 3 different seniority dates (some 4 or 5).

Kev can attest to that. I had 2 seniority dates. One was my DOH, which was also my Mechanic seniority date, then I had my Lead Mechanic date. Some had ESE, ESC, Stock Clerk, Mechanic, PMI, Inspector, Lead Inspector...

Many did not like the classification seniority when it came to Leads, but with that seniority came many headaches...

I digress...

Absolutely correct. FWIW, I have 3 seniority dates...

Only thing I'd add to that is that when it came to layoffs, or bumping, you use/used the classification seniority you're currently in, and not DOH.

 

[David G]

Agreed!
Right now with the NW/AFA does the above example happen? It does at
pre merger Delta. At NW Does that '77 date of hire accrue/bid for their vacation
DOH ? or Inflight Date ?

I started with NWA in Feb 1987 and became a F/A in Oct 1988...The only thing that my original DOH is used for is: Vacation bidding and Retirement purposes. Bidding my line, cabin positions, transfers, etc are all based on my F/A seniority. There are several of us here at NWA that have had multiple positions in the Company throuought our careers, as I'm sure that there are many of you at DL have. I have no problem using my F/A seniority for bidding etc., but I would also like DL to recognize my TOTAL years of service for retirement, vacation, and pass travel. Those two years as a ticket agent were probably the worst two years of my carreer ; to ignore this time as if it didn't exist is simply unacceptable

 

[Dignity]

It does at
pre merger Delta.

If the policy recognizes vacation accrual/bidding from the original date of hire(separate from the transfer date into another department) that should apply for both groups going forward. the idea would be to take the best from both groups policies/procedures/benefits and maintain while focusing improving the rest.

the DL seniority integration committee..they deserve a ..thank you.. for their countless hours and dedication, focusing on doing the right thing... this shows the Delta people are truly fair and will take all aspects into consideration. It says a lot and is appreciated from this NW Flight Attendant

 

[Dignity]

I have 3 seniority dates...

me too..

the date most refer to as DOH (for a SSN list) is considered the first day of training.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

If the policy recognizes vacation accrual/bidding from the original date of hire(separate from the transfer date into another department) that should apply for both groups going forward. the idea would be to take the best from both groups policies/procedures/benefits and maintain while focusing improving the rest.

the DL seniority integration committee..they deserve a ..thank you.. for their countless hours and dedication, focusing on doing the right thing... this shows the Delta people are truly fair and will take all aspects into consideration. It says a lot and is appreciated from this NW Flight Attendant

I agree, Dig and it was fair and equitable as it is basically DOH.
Now, that being said......it calls to mind, what's left of it-(ha!)...our friend on these boards from last year..uhm..gosh..I can't remember her name,(told ya!). Anyway, she was telling us here that, for her, DOH was not fair and was going to listen to the company and NOT vote for AFA last spring because the company said to wait (and they did) as AFA's DOH policy may not be the best. Now, here we are.....DOH.
Interesting, wouldn't you say?

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

our friend on these boards from last year..uhm..gosh..I can't remember her name

Cooper! That's it! Are you out there anymore, Coop?

 

[jimntx]

My two cents (which at current prices is worth about .0002 cents )

It seems to me that this thread is mixing two different issues that all f/as should be sure get addressed, but should not be mixed together--company seniority and bidding seniority.

I am really surprised to learn that NW f/as count their seniority from the first day of training. At most airlines, you aren't considered an employee until you successfully complete f/a training and go on the line. Now that shouldn't be a problem in the future if that's the way you want to do it, but in this merger where you will have to do look backs, etc to determine seniority for the merged list, it could be a problem.

For instance...
Pre-Merger: Company A counts seniority from first day of training. Company B counts training from first day on the line. Each company has a f/a whose pre-merger seniority dates are the same 1/1/1990.

During the merger: A decision is made to count both seniorities the same--1st day of training. Now Company B f/a has 5-6 weeks seniority to the Company A f/a.

Also, if the training period for the two companies is seriously different in length, would this not also disadvantage the f/a with the shorter training? My classic example is Southwest. Since they only fly one type of airplane, their training is substantially shorter than DL or NW or United where f/as have to be trained on a number of a/c. Also, at AA, f/as are only trained for domestic service initially (unlike most of the rest of you); so, they do not get trained on a/c that are used only in the International service.

As far as company seniority, I am fairly certain that it is a violation of Federal law to start your company service accrual again (for vacation length, pension credit, etc) if you change departments--unless you were classified as a temporary employee in your initial department. If you started on 1/1/1990 as a gate agent and then became a flight attendant on 1/1/1995, your company seniority for all benefits available to all other employees would remain 1/1/1990.

 

[Dignity]

I agree, Dig and it was fair and equitable as it is basically DOH.
Now, that being said......it calls to mind, what's left of it-(ha!)...our friend on these boards from last year..uhm..gosh..I can't remember her name,(told ya!). Anyway, she was telling us here that, for her, DOH was not fair and was going to listen to the company and NOT vote for AFA last spring because the company said to wait (and they did) as AFA's DOH policy may not be the best. Now, here we are.....DOH.
Interesting, wouldn't you say?

considering Aday(or whatever its called) is a very realistic situation for the combined group, there would have been absolutely no way they could have even thought about placing someone junior ahead of someone senior and then the Aday would apply to a senior person while the junior would not. that issue alone would have been a problem.

thinking what is fair for the combined group should be the main focus.. while still
taking individual priorities definitely into consideration at the same time.

one way in order for teamwork to be effective one has to focus on the group, and what is fair for everyone.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

considering Aday(or whatever its called)

I will tell you this. The word on the line (and on the NOWAYAFA Facebook site as of today) is that if AFA is voted in, the Adays will disappear and jr. f/a's will go back to being on straight reserve. (A scare tactic the NO WAY'ers are using...funny, for a group that tells AFA to stop the scare tactics, they sure have a bag of their own.)
One friend believes because NW jr f/a's want 3 Adays (naturally) instead of full month reserve, the vote may fail to pass.
Now, that being said..what percentage of your total f/a population is on reserve?

 

[BABABOOY]

if you change departments--unless you were classified as a temporary employee in your initial department. If you started on 1/1/1990 as a gate agent and then became a flight attendant on 1/1/1995, your company seniority for all benefits available to all other employees would remain 1/1/1990.

This is the way it is for a "Pre-Merger DL f/A"

 

[Dignity]

I am really surprised to learn that NW f/as count their seniority from the first day of training. At most airlines, you aren't considered an employee until you successfully complete f/a training and go on the line.

I stand corrected but..I think this started to change when candidates started to receive pay during training...while others prior were unpaid, how does one group get paid and considered 'non employee' ? how does a company pay someone and then consider they are not employed? it doesn't make a lot of sense..

it is not necessarily the Flight Attendants solely feel this was rather than the company simply acknowledging they should have either paid the ones prior and since they did not, they should consider credit the training..and they did, and they should.

personally have always felt day one with a company, is exactly that..day one(especially when a SSN list comes into the picture)

to my understanding the DL Flight Attendants too, will receive training credit per the recommendation for an adjusted seniority date, and I agree with that as well.

For instance...
Pre-Merger: Company A counts seniority from first day of training. Company B counts training from first day on the line. Each company has a f/a whose pre-merger seniority dates are the same 1/1/1990.

During the merger: A decision is made to count both seniorities the same--1st day of training. Now Company B f/a has 5-6 weeks seniority to the Company A f/a.

I am fairly certain the general idea posted was actually addressed, however cannot elaborate on the details at this time..

Also, at AA, f/as are only trained for domestic service initially (unlike most of the rest of you); so, they do not get trained on a/c that are used only in the International service.

while I completely understand different airlines have different criteria for training, that does not seem the most productive to me..keeping in mind we have always been required to be trained on all equipment types, policies and procedures Internationally/Domestic..so its just routine for us.

As far as company seniority, I am fairly certain that it is a violation of Federal law to start your company service accrual again (for vacation length, pension credit, etc)

I believe most want the current policy to be maintained, and that would be DL current recognition of all years employed, to me, how that will translate over-all is yet to be determined at this time.
at minimum, non-rev should absolutely be the original hire date.