Survey shows Delta lags behind on "brand respect"

[WorldTraveler]

The airline industry has been a heavily summer skewed business for years. DL has been very aggressive in adding flying when it can profitably fill the planes and removing it when it can't. That means the system will be more stressed during the summer than it was in the past.

Out of 20K or so FAs, the vast majority do get it... and they also recognize that things happen that require that the norms are temporarily suspended.
I travel enough, see enough data, and talk to enough people to know that the vast majority of people get it
It is precisely because of the flexibility that the FAs get most of the rest of the year that the vast majority tolerate a few inconveniences when they do happen - which is predominantly in the summer and the peak but short winter periods.

If what is listed above is outside of the norm either of what DL does or, more importantly the rest of the industry, then the FAs do have a right to complain and to seek to force a contract.

The fact that FAs with contracts experience the same types of things goes to show that contracts don't solve all of these problems and why they haven't voted for a union despite one attempt after another.

I have no problem w/ an FA saying that 3 or 6 or 9 out of those things happened to them over the past 3 months.

I have a problem w/ failing to maintain a balanced perspective of what the FAs do experience on a regular basis or what they have relative to their peers.

I have insisted on the same balance on other issues and I will ensure that it happens in those discussion as well.

BTW, DL's high and improving customer service metrics and brand improvement have a whole lot to do with the FAs and their ability to do their job as good as or better than their peers.

The vast majority of the FAs not just at DL but elsewhere do their jobs very well.

The issue is balance in the discussion.

 

[700UW]

 

[737823]

Tell us about the lower real wages and benefits US fleet and M&R employees enjoy today compares to 1988. Not to mention headcount reductions and other benefits that have been terminated. Guess you can't comprehend that DL filed chapter 11 and all employees gave concessions, including management. And DL made improvements to their FAs wages and work rules upon emergence in 2007.

Josh

 

[700UW]

Actually the employees at DL except for the pilots and dispatchers (who negotiated concessions) had concessions imposed on them, by DL and the court.

I guess you dont understand that, and you also dont understand US filed bankruptcy twice and used Section 1113 C to get three rounds of concessions from employees, all groups except mechanic and related agreed to concessions, we had our CBA abrogated in 2005, and US and the IAM negotiated improvements in the CBA in 2008 with transition agreements for M&R, Fleet and MTS.

Guess you dont comprehend the facts.

 

[737823]

Not debating that concessions were given or in some cases imposed, but please present to us a similar case of the lower standard or living USAIR workers enjoy today than in 1988. It would truly be staggering for you to see.

Josh

 

[700UW]

If you want the information on it, do it yourself, I dont have spoon feed you.

And everyone in the airline industry has suffered since 9/11, except for WN, but WN is now going after major language and reductions in their negotiations.

We had an Industry leading contract up until the bankruptcies.

 

[737823]

I know how to look up CBAs and Consumer Price Index info from the BLS, thank you very much. I am saying it is disingenuous and a fabrication on the IAMs part to cherry pick facts like this and they conveniently leave out the fact that workers throughout the industry have seen real earnings decline substantially in the past 12 years along with major headcount reductions. But hey it's not like the IAM hasn't tried pulling off lies like thus before.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

I travel enough, see enough data, and talk to enough people to know that the vast majority of people get it

You see enough to either *think* you have the whole picture, or just see enough to reinforce what you want to believe. With all due respect, you have no idea what's really going on at your alma mater.

To paraphrase your earlier advice; just because you can post about a particular subject, doesn't mean you should.

Don't worry; when the subject turns to RASM, PRASM, or CASM, it'll be your time to shine.

I am saying it is disingenuous and a fabrication on the IAMs part to cherry pick facts like this and they conveniently leave out the fact that workers throughout the industry have seen real earnings decline substantially in the past 12 years along with major headcount reductions. But hey it's not like the IAM hasn't tried pulling off lies like thus before.

Josh

It's not disingenuous at all. This particular flyer is targeted directly at a "DL-centric" fact. There are plenty of other flyers currently out there with OAL compare/contrasts on them...

What specific part of this flier do you think is a lie, and why?

 

[737823]

They cherry picked the timeline and facts to craft a divisional emotional appeal of us vs them (DL CEOs 1988-2013) that neglects to mention real wages for airline industry workers have declined in the period to as you say make it unique to DL.

Funny you are all over this as someone whose mantra has been to look past the base rate and consider the total compensation package.

And using CPI to evaluate changes in cost of living overstates the rate of change, using a real GDP deflator is more representative of actual changes. The basket of goods is fixed, people's consumption patterns change. This doesn't consider the substitution effect and as nominal prices change people's consumption choices change too. CPI is a laspeyres index, an index constructed this way always overstates increases.

From my friends at NBER

http://nber.org//chapters/c6073.pdf

Josh

 

[737823]

Also I've read most of Levitt's book and found it to be very candid and interesting. I think he made it overly personalized discussing his drinking problems, family problems, relationships but I guess he felt that was an essential part to set the stage for his life as a labor relations consultant. The impression I was left with is he's a disloyal wheeler dealer trying to do whatever is most popular at the time, joining the restaurant union for three months then leaving and collecting all the signing bonuses, relocation assistance, etc. None of the activities on his engagements surprised me in the least bit and similar actions are being taken by others today.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

They cherry picked the timeline and facts to craft a divisional emotional appeal of us vs them (DL CEOs 1988-2013) that neglects to mention real wages for airline industry workers have declined in the period to as you say make it unique to DL.

It's not unique to DL; the numbers used are.

Funny you are all over this as someone whose mantra has been to look past the base rate and consider the total compensation package.

I'm not "all over" anything. I just asked what you felt was a lie about this flyer.

But, yeah, I'm a big fan of discussing total compensation vs. simply keeping it to a base rate. Fact is, that's decreasing for many DL employees as well from a lot of different angles. We can go into specifics, but you & I have gone over it all many times already.

Also I've read most of Levitt's book and found it to be very candid and interesting. I think he made it overly personalized discussing his drinking problems, family problems, relationships but I guess he felt that was an essential part to set the stage for his life as a labor relations consultant. The impression I was left with is he's a disloyal wheeler dealer trying to do whatever is most popular at the time, joining the restaurant union for three months then leaving and collecting all the signing bonuses, relocation assistance, etc. None of the activities on his engagements surprised me in the least bit and similar actions are being taken by others today.

Josh

I'm glad you're enjoying it. At first blush, I too found the "personal" part curious. In the end I suppose he wanted to tell two stories of redemption- one personal, one professional- and intertwine them both, since they (more or less) developed concurrently.

You shouldn't be surprised to see the same stuff occurring today. Many union avoidance firms today use the same tactics he did, and many of the same stale code words are still used as well. To be honest, I find that lack of creativity really annoying... Just my .02...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
Let’s be real honest that you would love nothing more than to remove me from the conversation since I present a contrary and balancing perspective that you would far rather not to have to deal with.
All I have ever asked for on this forum - DL or any other board - is that balanced and fair perspectives be included and not just the one-sided talking points and defenses.

If you’re so concerned about ensuring that only active employees provide feedback, why have you not asked 700 or Q or Josh for that matter to stay away? They have never worked a day of their life at Delta Air Lines.
I know the subjects about which I speak and will participate in what I know something about and stay out of those I don’t.

There has been a clear assault on American middle class wages and benefits across the board and the airline industry has certainly not been exempt. As often happens with business trends, the airline industry is the guinea pig for the rest of American business; the fact that even municipal workers are losing – not just seeing their pensions frozen – shows that what starts in the airline industry quickly becomes a societal problem.

700,
As usual you and the labor talking points selectively present data (as Josh notes) without providing the balanced perspective that DL employees consider when they make choices about representation.
You fail to note that the average DL FA’s salary has increased by almost 20% in the past five years, far higher than the rate of increase for union-represented FAs in the US. That accomplish is all the more significant since DL has hired more FAs – at the bottom of the scale – than any other airline in the US.

DL FAs have received far more profit sharing than FAs at any other airline in the US, but we already know that you discount that compensation since the IAM waived it at US for its employees.

DL FAs have frozen pension benefits; UA and US’ were terminated. And even though FAs typically fall below PBGC limits on coverage, the terms of DL’s and AA’s pension benefits including when it can first be received, are more generous than the PBGC’s.

The bankruptcy court imposed NOTHING on DL’s non-contract employees. And no union can take credit for the industry-leading pay raises or profit sharing which DL employees including FAs have enjoyed, esp. over the past three years.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev,
Let’s be real honest that you would love nothing more than to remove me from the conversation since I present a contrary and balancing perspective that you would far rather not to have to deal with.

That may be what the voices in your head are telling you, but you're gonna have to show me a post on here-and any one'll do- where I've explicitly said that. There's plenty to root through, so you might wanna get on it.

No, what I (and others) find so obnoxious is your framing yourself as an SME on every.single.topic.

Truth is not only have you been gone from DL for several years- years that it's fair to say have seen *massive* changes at DL, but you also weren't in any frontline dept. when you were there.

Take your own advice, stick to areas what you know, and come down off the cross already; we need the wood.

All I have ever asked for on this forum - DL or any other board - is that balanced and fair perspectives be included and not just the one-sided talking points and defenses.

Your evangelizing in 1200 word bursts =/= "balanced."

If you’re so concerned about ensuring that only active employees provide feedback, why have you not asked 700 or Q or Josh for that matter to stay away? They have never worked a day of their life at Delta Air Lines.

Again, gonna need some proof that was specifically said. Happy digging!

I know the subjects about which I speak

No. You don't.

and will participate in what I know something about and stay out of those I don’t.

Great. Anytime you wanna take your own advice would be just fine...

 

[700UW]

The things is I am not the media, nor is this a political ad, I dont have to provide equal time.

I am pro-labor, and I dont need to post company crap.

 

[WorldTraveler]

... which just means that you shouldn't be surprised if I choose to pull out all the information I can find to counter your arguments.

You can either provide a balanced perspective or I will.

Thanks for your reply, Kev.

First of all, your basic information about me is incorrect so it isn’t surprising that your conclusions are also incorrect. Most importantly, you assume I cannot relate to your life and your perspectives because I haven’t walked exactly in your shoes on the same pieces of earth you have talked. Yes, we haven't tread the same spot of earth but there are experiences that everyone in the human race faces and even beyond that our lives have a whole lot more in common than just any two average human beings.

Second, I do indeed have things in the airline industry about which I do not have knowledge – primarily operational and technical subjects… but those don’t get discussed here.

I do know a WHOLE LOT about the business of aviation and there is an abundance of information that is publicly available – I just happen to know where to look. But I have NEVER failed to tell someone where they can find the information I reference, although I have noted that some of it cannot be posted on a public website.

Your statements that I don't know what I am talking about mean little if you can't or won't debate what you find to be inaccurate.

Third, you (collective you) would shut me down on this board if you provided the balance and perspective that I have repeatedly said I want to see but we see above that there are people who aren't willing to provide balanced information so you shouldn't be surprised if someone else does...

Fourth, I don’t understand why it is a threat to you or anyone else if I really do know a whole lot about a whole lot of subjects. I have always welcomed discussion and perspectives… but I also am not afraid to challenge you or anyone if your facts are not correct if something has a factual basis or if you come to a conclusion based on incomplete information. I have no problem if you or others want to make emotionally-based statements which do not have a black or white answer as long as you acknowledge them as such.

But I believe you and others undervalue the contribution you do make to this board and in other areas just because you are confronted by someone who has other perspectives. I ABSOLUTELY VALUE the ideas you have to bring and have an enormous amount of respect for your persistence, commitment to your ideals, and outstanding communication skills. There are certainly others on this board who deserve recognition as well.

You haven't said in so many words for me to not participate but when you say:

To paraphrase your earlier advice; just because you can post about a particular subject, doesn't mean you should.

you're making your calls about where you think I should or should not post.


Fifth, I scratch my head at the notion that you and others have repeatedly shown that I should NOT participate in some conversations. If you are as certain about what you believe, then why does my presence – or anyone else’s – really matter? And if I legitimately do have perspectives that challenge you, then you should be willing to work to resolve my objections, not attack me because I highlight something that you didn’t know or weren’t prepared to defend (you is used here in the collective sense.) I have never told anyone that they should not participate in any conversation and I never will.

Thank you for being honest, Kev. I do appreciate it. I will work to validate the contributions of each of the people on this board and try not to be the know-it-all but I also shouldn’t be forced to sit by and read something that is factually incorrect because
someone else doesn’t take the time to verify if their information is completely correct or chooses not to include the other perspective because doing so would seemingly take away key parts of one’s “platform.”

How do you know what kind of changes have taken place at DL since before the merger? You were never part of DL before. How do you also not know that the DL of today isn't a whole lot more like the DL that used to exist before the merger. You also assume that I have no clue what was going to happen to DL and also what has happened since - both of which are inaccurate.

But again, you would like to paint that picture so that you can justify excluding me from the conversation and leaving the platform to yourself, even if you don't explicitly say that.

Thanks again for your contributions to this board and for being willing to tackle tough topics in order to make it even better.