Teamsters card drive

[WeAAsles]

As a side, the IAM cut future benefits twice since 2003. The earlier one being a result of the 911 events and markets. The second one, mostly as a result of it having 33% in stocks when the market collapsed. At least that was what they told us. Along the way there have been pension acts. One which put more pressure on the union pensions and one [the latest] which provided relief and allows for a extended amortization of liabilities. And a 3rd where a union pension can cut active benefits of retirees but I hope we don't ever have to see that.

I know that the Teamsters Central States was pushing for that one but I'm not sure if I recall it being passed or not? Isn't that last one still kind of lingering out there Tim?

And I'm BY FAR not selling anyone that if given the choice they should get in or get out of the IAMPF. That last funding letter is a case for concern absolutely. I'd like to know (find out) if those future liabilities have now leveled off? Will those liabilities start to go down against what's going in once the Baby Boomers start to croak?

 

[Bob Owens]

Sure it does/did. During the BK we had to ultimately give back a total final tally of 17% of the total value of our contracts. We weren't on an upswing comparing ourselves to our peers to at least match wages.

A contribution by the Company direct wouldn't be matched. That would be a silly thought in and of itself. They're going to say we're going to give you 3% and Match that as well for a total of 6%? They would have just said we're contributing X amount by percentage against your wages into that retirement vehicle.

Anyway you try to formulate the puzzle they were intent on the max (at the time) being 5.5%

Also IMO taking it out of your check is a good thing as it raises an awareness that it exists. Unlike our old Pension that most people actually had no clue how much was in there and how many years they actually had vested for a payout?

Had a lady once that wanted to retire after only putting in 10 years with the Company. (PT and CS'd off half her shift her entire career) You had to see the look on her face when I showed her she only had 3 years vested.

First off that was the company's numbers, we did not "Have" to give 17%, that number was negotiable, as it had already gone down from 20% after the Pilots told them that removing the value of the Pension to the PBGC, which they WOULD NEVER AGREE TO , there was no way they could meet 20%, so the company changed it from 20% to 17%. Also the values of the Concessions were negotiable and other groups like stores , Pilots etc were able to negotiate better values, we in M&R were cockblocked by Videtiech and the Tulsa guys at every turn. One example is we proved using their own figures that giving us back our first two days sick would save them $7million a year but they refused to consider it.

6%? You are talking nonsense as usual and trying to confuse the issue. How does what I put in get into the equation for comparison purposes? In order to get 3% I have to lose 3% of my current disposable income.

Actually being unaware that you have money adding up is usually better for most. Only you would think that having to pay for my pension would be better than not having to pay for it. Yes up to 5.5% you are making 100% on your money but its still much less than what we had with our Pension, especially for 30 year guys like me. Had we kept the Pension and I retired at 60 I would have received around $4500 a month guaranteed, till the day I died. AA only puts a little more than that per year in my 401K plus I have to put in at least that much to get that. I'm 56, now I'll get around $2200 a month for my Pension, I lost half what I expected. The company total Contribution over my last 10 years of service will only fund a little more than one year of what I was to receive every year. For the last ten years of service I'll receive around $50,000 for my pension vs roughly $400,000 in average total value that the last 10 years would have boosted my pension (the loss of around $22000 per year from age 60 to 79)

 

[WeAAsles]

That entire post makes ZERO sense, or should I say cents?
On an equal percentage basis Matches are inherently cheaper for the employer and more costly for workers than Contributions. The employer only matches what the employee cant do without up to a defined max. If I can afford to put in nothing. like many new hires feel, then I get nothing, If I can afford to put in 10% they only match 5.5%. Either way If I want any contribution from the company I have to pay for it with less disposable income now.

You edited:

I agree with what you said "IF" the Company wasn't taking an automatic no choice deferal of 3% out of our checks.

No one is putting in nothing because you don't have any choice not to feed that voracious Stock Market.

 

[P. REZ]

P.REZ
1. Currently the FAs with my years of service are getting the higher rate. The expiration date of that rate is post contract term I believe. The FAs also have a contribution, not a Match.
2. I don't believe PAX is licensed or certified by the FAA like mechanics, Pilots or Flight Attendants. This was also their first contract.
3. My rate is $49.52 X .055 = $2.72/hr which is more than $2.20 and I get that for all hours worked.
4. Ok . Whats the formula and after 5 years what could we expect per month? What would my cash value be?
5 . Are CS and OT hours included in that figure or not? If not and the fund only receives $3522.2 (1601 x $2.20) would I get the same Pension as if the Fund received $4576? That's great for the company but not so great for the plan or its participants who pay the full amount. It would mean that the company could get the full 2080 hours of service but only fund 1601 hours and save over $1000 more.
6.OK Thanks

4. $1.00=$46.98, $2.00=$85.46, $3.00=$120.44. You multiply the multiplier times your years of service in the pension for monthly pension benefit.
5. If you CS off and CS on in same week, would count.

P. Rez

 

[WeAAsles]

First off that was the company's numbers, we did not "Have" to give 17%, that number was negotiable, as it had already gone down from 20% after the Pilots told them that removing the value of the Pension to the PBGC, which they WOULD NEVER AGREE TO , there was no way they could meet 20%, so the company changed it from 20% to 17%. Also the values of the Concessions were negotiable and other groups like stores , Pilots etc were able to negotiate better values, we in M&R were cockblocked by Videtiech and the Tulsa guys at every turn. One example is we proved using their own figures that giving us back our first two days sick would save them $7million a year but they refused to consider it.

6%? You are talking nonsense as usual and trying to confuse the issue. How does what I put in get into the equation for comparison purposes? In order to get 3% I have to lose 3% of my current disposable income.

Actually being unaware that you have money adding up is usually better for most. Only you would think that having to pay for my pension would be better than not having to pay for it. Yes up to 5.5% you are making 100% on your money but its still much less than what we had with our Pension, especially for 30 year guys like me. Had we kept the Pension and I retired at 60 I would have received around $4500 a month guaranteed, till the day I died. AA only puts a little more than that per year in my 401K plus I have to put in at least that much to get that. I'm 56, now I'll get around $2200 a month for my Pension, I lost half what I expected. The company total Contribution over my last 10 years of service will only fund a little more than one year of what I was to receive every year. For the last ten years of service I'll receive around $50,000 for my pension vs roughly $400,000 in average total value that the last 10 years would have boosted my pension (the loss of around $22000 per year from age 60 to 79)

Well Videtech, Little, Gless, Connelly, Gillespie and others were all chucked out on their keesters which should make you and many others very happy. Bob nothing personal with this comment but let me know when they build that time machine and maybe you and I can go back to some year and make all the changes needed that would have made our future lives much better. We'll start with ripping up that paper that Carter signed in 1979 and go from there. Maybe you and I could also have prevented Sept 11 and the Global economic collapse too?

Anyway on a side note I want to ask you. What's going on here? There's a reason you're back on here after all this time like a bolt out of the blue with an almost desperate intensity? Did someone (don't want names) tell you something that scared the crap out of you?

I just get the feeling honestly that something was put in your ear that made you suddenly scream, NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!?

 

[P. REZ]

My understanding is that if our Pension did get rolled into the IAMNPF that our Pension would no longer fall under the rules of a "single employer pension" which provides us Protection even in BK through the PBGC. While on paper we aren't supposed to loose any value there would no longer be a guarantee from American Airlines or Protection through the PBGC. I believe we could also lose the ability to retire without penalty at 60. I believe the governments value is an actuarial value and does not put any value on things like being able to retire at 60 without penalty, that's considered a perk not an earned benefit. So lets say the fund runs into trouble we could see our benefits cut while AA posts record profits and pays nothing. I believe we could also lose the ability to retire without penalty at 60 and 55 with 3% penalty for each year prior to 60. These points are huge incentives for the company and its why I say we should be aware and prepared if it becomes a bargaining topic. The company would get to eliminate millions from their Liabilities and also lower premiums to the PBGC. It would have the same effect on their balance sheets as getting rid of the Pension in BK. Instead of giving stock to the PBGC they may be able to give stock to the IAMNPF for the shortfall, either way the IAMNPF would see a huge influx of cash. Either way our Pension liability would be off their books with nothing to back up the fund except the contributions of other workers.

There would be a lot to be gained by the Company, the IAMNPF and the Association and a lot lost by us through such an arrangement and I don't trust these guys enough to think they will pass over it if they feel they can get away with it. I think if they are thinking about it they will stay quiet about it till the last moment and hope that we are so desperate for Holidays and Vacation back that we slip them this HUGE Concession, a Concession that we gave everything else away to preserve over the last two decades. They will sell it as us getting our DB Pension back but omit or downplay all the very serious shortfalls of losing our single employer DB vs the Multi employer DP. (defined promise with nothing to back it up). The best way to make sure it doesn't happen is to start making a lot of noise about it and to make it toxic to the Association. The Association must be made very aware that they can be fired.

P.REZ was your AWA Pension rolled into the IAMNPF for credits? I'm pretty sure I've seen examples but I haven't found any lately.

Didn't have a pension, had a 401K match. FYI, outside of having a crystal ball to show me the future, I do prefer the pension. I have been contributing to my 401k since 1989 and have had the pension since 2009.

P. Rez

 

[skydrol]

Well Videtech, Little, Gless, Connelly, Gillespie and others were all chucked out on their keesters which should make you and many others very happy. Bob nothing personal with this comment but let me know when they build that time machine and maybe you and I can go back to some year and make all the changes needed that would have made our future lives much better. We'll start with ripping up that paper that Carter signed in 1979 and go from there. Maybe you and I could also have prevented Sept 11 and the Global economic collapse too?

Anyway on a side note I want to ask you. What's going on here? There's a reason you're back on here after all this time like a bolt out of the blue with an almost desperate intensity? Did someone (don't want names) tell you something that scared the crap out of you?

I just get the feeling honestly that something was put in your ear that made you suddenly scream, NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!?

TWU troll

 

[WeAAsles]

TWU troll

Darn man I'm sorry if I like some of the "people" who are in leadership positions in the TWU today.

Actually no I'm not sorry.

Next?

 

[1AA]

4. $1.00=$46.98, $2.00=$85.46, $3.00=$120.44. You multiply the multiplier times your years of service in the pension for monthly pension benefit.
5. If you CS off and CS on in same week, would count.

P. Rez

CS in the same week? That would not work for 99% of us. People CS to get time off or extend vc. Commuters would suffer the most. The rest of us would be in line for a loss as well. The iampf has no business trying to get the twu guys into it.

 

[WeAAsles]

CS in the same week? That would not work for 99% of us. People CS to get time off or extend vc. Commuters would suffer the most. The rest of us would be in line for a loss as well. The iampf has no business trying to get the twu guys into it.

And you have no business advocating against a "choice" when you're one of the loudest voices on Forums how your vote for "choice" was taken away from you with the formation of the Association.

That's called being a hypocrite.

 

[skydrol]

Darn man I'm sorry if I like some of the "people" who are in leadership positions in the TWU today.

Actually no I'm not sorry.

Next?

I would of lost that bet, I figured you would respond within 10 minutes but it was just under an hour. You remind me of the PR group Tulsa 514 hired in early 2000 to spin the AMFA drive. Duey turnbo and snake or sometime like that. They put out a propaganda news letter once a week. Remember when the TWU brought in a company hiring SCABS for Northwest for the AMFA strike ? They were brought in when Kansas City had a layoff . "We just wanted to provide our members with employment opportunities". One thing a long term TWU member knows is anything is possible if both parties agree laws or not. Bob is not bringing anything up that we have not discussed with fear since the beginning of the Association in the break rooms of the station I work at. The Association,that is awesome both parties obligated to look out for the best interest of the people they represent in the same work group, yeah let's see how that works out for us. Your heros that were in the international were looking out for themselves and have been justly rewarded. How many international people have you given your sign in to this board ? Or are you just full time on UB monitoring and spinning ? Now try to draw me into a dead end discussion with some insult.

 

[WeAAsles]

CS in the same week? That would not work for 99% of us. People CS to get time off or extend vc. Commuters would suffer the most. The rest of us would be in line for a loss as well. The iampf has no business trying to get the twu guys into it.

BTW here's the formula that includes how many hours in a year you have to work to receive a full 12 months of credited service. Now you do the math how much you can CS (swap shift) off and not lose anything.

http://mypension.iamnpf.org/media/13829/IAM_SPD_11.pdf

 

[WeAAsles]

I would of lost that bet, I figured you would respond within 10 minutes but it was just under an hour. You remind me of the PR group Tulsa 514 hired in early 2000 to spin the AMFA drive. Duey turnbo and snake or sometime like that. They put out a propaganda news letter once a week. Remember when the TWU brought in a company hiring SCABS for Northwest for the AMFA strike ? They were brought in when Kansas City had a layoff . "We just wanted to provide our members with employment opportunities". One thing a long term TWU member knows is anything is possible if both parties agree laws or not. Bob is not bringing anything up that we have not discussed with fear since the beginning of the Association in the break rooms of the station I work at. The Association,that is awesome both parties obligated to look out for the best interest of the people they represent in the same work group, yeah let's see how that works out for us. Your heros that were in the international were looking out for themselves and have been justly rewarded. How many international people have you given your sign in to this board ? Or are you just full time on UB monitoring and spinning ? Now try to draw me into a dead end discussion with some insult.

I'm on D1 MIA gate Monday through Friday afternoons. Just CS'd off 2 days following my vacation for the first time in months. I work 40 per week. Send anyone you know over and you'll find me. Anyone!!!

"Discussed with fear"

Never said the Association was awesome.

No one in the past in the TWU was a hero of mine and I think they did cause some pretty good damage to our Union actually in hindsight. As far as the "people" in there now whether I like some of them or not doesn't matter. They'll always be, and always should be on probation. I hope they never become complacent and have to EARN our trust.

And I only insult people who insult me first. Did I call you a Troll or Warthog?

Next?

 

[WeAAsles]

BTW Skydroll, Tim Gillespie LIED to all his members faces in 2003 when he emphatically stated that if we accepted the concessions and got laid off and bumped we would still get the $12,500 Special Moving Allowance.

I came to terms with Tim on that one but that NEVER changed the FACT that he LIED to all his members in DFW that day at the Lonesome Dove.

 

[swamt]

The idea is to make us so desperate that we'll accept ANYTHING. The IAMNPF IS GOING TO BE IN THERE. They want to make sure it passes, so unless we start a drive to replace the Association they will be in no hurry. If they feel especially confident they will try and roll our AA Pension into the IAMNPF as well.

Are you suggesting that it is time for a card drive? I kinda took your post that way. Hey if that's what you guys need to do to speed up nego's then go for it. But if it is just for the reason of speeding up nego's then not sure if that is too smart. If your gonna do the card drive be prepared to follow thru completely. My personal opinion is that the pension hanging over the heads of the IAM'ers will not get them to sign a card. The TWU lovers will not sign a card. It will more than likely take a huge factor like forcing the membership into this pension, but hell, they couldn't get enough cards when they were forced into the association. I just don't see it getting done now that the combination has been done. But, if you guys do kick one off I will support it 100% and really hope you all get it done.