TERM SHEET DURATION........

Hopeful

Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
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I mentioned my concerns on the duration should the term sheets be imposed on us in another post. But I started this post so it gets the attention of more people.

Should the judge abrogate our agreements, the company can impose the term sheets on us.
Now, we were told that the judge does not cherry pick which articles he likes and dislikes.

I ask you this...
IF THE JUDGE DOES NOT CHERRY PICK CONTRACTUAL ITEMS, THEN WHY WOULD HE CHERRY PICK THE TERM SHEETS...

THE TERM SHEETS SAY SIX YEAR DURATION FROM DOS.!

Does the TWU still contend that the 6 year duration will not apply?

Was not our main reason for voting no not only the language and conditions of the LBO, but the SIX YEAR LOCK IN AS WELL?

How is everyone going to feel getting the term sheets locked in for six years?

Changing unions will not help for at least six years.
 
There is no where in the RLA nor Section 1113C that new negotiations start upon and abrogation and imposition, why do you think AA is wanting to impose a six year deal?

The POR per the UCC will have to have a business plan in effect so the judge will approve the POR, they wont approve a POR with open labor contracts.
 
There is no where in the RLA nor Section 1113C that new negotiations start upon and abrogation and imposition, why do you think AA is wanting to impose a six year deal?

The POR per the UCC will have to have a business plan in effect so the judge will approve the POR, they wont approve a POR with open labor contracts.

Ok, then why should the company care if we voted yes or no since they would get the term sheets imposed for six years anyway?
Next point is, does abrogating contracts and imposing term sheets constitute a settled labor contract?
 
It makes them look like they bargained in good faith, and it shows labor peace if they were voted in.

Yes if your CBA is abrogated and new terms imposed its good for the six year duration as a settled CBA.
 
It makes them look like they bargained in good faith, and it shows labor peace if they were voted in.

Yes if your CBA is abrogated and new terms imposed its good for the six year duration as a settled CBA.

Ok, I will take your word based on your experience with this.


Does everyone NOW realize that we might be stuck with the term sheets for six years anyway?
 
Ok, I will take your word based on your experience with this.


Does everyone NOW realize that we might be stuck with the term sheets for six years anyway?

IMO
Negotiations will continue, and everything in the CBA is hammered out once again
Why would you think that a 6 year contract is etched into granite, when all of that can change in negotiations?
 
There is no where in the RLA nor Section 1113C that new negotiations start upon and abrogation and imposition, why do you think AA is wanting to impose a six year deal?

The POR per the UCC will have to have a business plan in effect so the judge will approve the POR, they wont approve a POR with open labor contracts.

Did IAM at USAirway negotiate with the company after the judge abrogated and then put out to vote
 
Ok, I will take your word based on your experience with this.
Does everyone NOW realize that we might be stuck with the term sheets for six years anyway?

Are you honestly just now coming to that conclusion one week after voting has ended. Really? Where have you been hiding?

That possibility was explained to you over and over by the TWU, the membership still voted NO, and now you pretend as if some new revelation has arrived.

Are you serious or is this satire? Maybe they will offer you a chance to change your vote and send it into the Judge.

If someone does not get the facts after so much information was provided, then they must look within themselves for fault.
 
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Are you honestly just now coming to that conclusion one week after voting has ended. Really? Where have you been hiding?

That possibility was explained to you over and over by the TWU, the membership still voted NO, and now you pretend as if some new revelation has arrived.

Are you serious or is this satire?


Spare me the lecture...
I voted NO because of language AND the fact that I was told by my LEADERSHIP we will start negotiations anew...DURATION is as clear as daylight in the term sheets. I read it well.. But was still told that the TWU's position was NO DURATION BECAUSE NO CONTRACT...

Not getting locked in to a six year deal is a major reason for a no vote...


You want to take a poll here as to how many people like me were told that we would not be locked in for six years?


Unlike those who post here who think they are bankruptcy and labor attorneys...I read and ask questions to arrive at my decisions. I am not an expert in these laws as others here think they are.
I asked questions, believed that the answers I got were the truth and factual.

So tell me, what's better? LBO FOR SIX YEARS OR TERM SHEETS FOR SIX YEARS?


Again, I ask you...how many people do you think beleived that by voting no, they weren't locking themselves into a six year deal?

I am sure there's a video out addressing both the durations of the LBO and term Sheets.
 
Ok, I will take your word based on your experience with this.


Does everyone NOW realize that we might be stuck with the term sheets for six years anyway?

Show me where a Judge has authority to do that. Under 1113(e) it says he can impose temporary terms but show me where it says he can impose permanent terms. If they could then why would there even be a requirement top bargain.

Show me one example of a non-consentaual deal that was put in place by the court outside of 1113(e) .
 
You need to debate 700UW on this one. I believe he experienced first hand this issue.


At this point I don't know what the judge can, will, won't, can't do with respects to abrogation.
I am no expert.
From here on end, since I am no expert like others here, I will return to this forum when either an agreement is reached or on June 22 when the judge makes his ruling.
I am no longer going to give my opinion nor am I going to listen to others opinions like they are right from Chapter 11 text books.

I will wait for the one person who will decide things....And that's the judge!
If a lawyer cannot give a definitive answer to a simple question, then who is anyone else here to speak as if they are end all?
 
Ok, I will take your word based on your experience with this.


Does everyone NOW realize that we might be stuck with the term sheets for six years anyway?

Question - if we are, for certain, going to be stuck with these "term sheets", why is the company so insistant a consensual agreement come about before their imposition? Is the company doing this from the goodness of their hearts for the benefit of their "gutter scum" employees?

I think not.

Logic would dictate the company knows their dreams (the infamous term sheet of 22 MAR) will be tossed by the judge and, while Judge Lane has no power to re-write the contract, he most certainly has the power to tell Centrepork why he won't grant their wishes. The very thought of the judge's attitude becoming public knowledge scares hell out AMR's management and union.

Consider - why would Centrepork commit to an early-out-buyout that will obviously cost them a great deal of money? Remember, this corporation has filed for bankruptcy while holding $4 billion in cash (no matter where it came from) with that position improving on a daily basis to the present $5.5 billion, IIRC since the filing on 29 NOV 2011.

WTF, boys and girls - I thought they were broke?

The bottom line would seem to be the company and its subsidiary are desperate for the approval of a deal more to their favor rather than chancing greater court supervision of their shenanigans, BS, and lies.

It seems the company and its union have bought the month's production of Dr. Guff's "Pretty Pig Lipstick" and "Turd Polish" - talk about American Ingenuity ...

See http://www.guffsturdpolish.com for details.

This is only my opinion and I've been wrong before,but ...
 
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Did IAM at USAirway negotiate with the company after the judge abrogated and then put out to vote

Yes, but only to help insure a yes vote. All the changes weren't renegotiated with any group starting right after abrogation. Just look at US. Despite a merger resulting in the need for combined contracts, the FA's and pilots still don't have conbined contracts more than 7 years after the merger. So much for immediately going right back to the table and negotiating improvements after abrogation.

At best the Judge will order limited negotiations after approving abrogation - a few weeks at most. As I've said before, he would rather have consensual agreements than not. However, assuming that the Judge approves abrogation AA won't wait any longer than they have to before abrogating the contracts and imposing the term sheet.

I have to admit, john john - for someone seemingly so pro-union you don't seem to know much about how all this works.

Jim
 
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Did IAM at USAirway negotiate with the company after the judge abrogated and then put out to vote
No. The last negotiation session was held the night before the abrogation, and we were at CCY until 4am in the morning.

That morning, I assembled the final offer, with the cover letters, proof read it, sent it off the printers to get it printed and overnighted to all the Grievance Committee Chairman to get it out to the membership.

There was no negotiations after the abrogation was approved and held in abeyance.
 
Any 1113e that has been imposed was interim,
consensual agreements where reached.