The unions are coming, the unions are coming!
- Thread starter bagboy
- Start date
I guess we have to ask ourselves what can a union do for us. What scares the hell out of me is seeing what happened to NWA mechanics. I had the opportunity to talk with a few of them while they were on strike and they didn't seem to think the union was going to be able to do much for them...little did they know what was in store for their futures. Did their strike fail because of a weak union or was it because they had little or no support from the other unions or maybe it was because the company pulled a fast one on them. Regardless, I don't want to end up with an outcome like theirs.
Come Fly with Me
Member
Don't worry Delta will make that decision for you. From a fellow employee here in LAX.....
Don't worry Delta will make that decision for you. From a fellow employee here in LAX.....
What do you mean by that? BTW how is my brother GSE guy doing, the one who got hurt?
AFA has it in their bylaws...
Date of Hire period.... and if a merger happens Date of Hire...
That is why you need AFA
vote yes...
DATE of Hire Period and its in the by laws...
Kev3188
Veteran
This is a great question. My (unsolicited) advice to you is to check out some of the other carrier's CBA's.
The NW ones are on the right side of this page. Grey is for CSA's, and the Black one covers ramp and stores.
WN's is here. Click on "documents," then on "contract."
Alaska's are here. COPFS is the CSA's, and RSSA is for the ramp & stores.
And here are some that are a bit more relevant to you, being a GSE mechanic...
Here is the AMFA agreement at NWA. Keep in mind that these are/were enforced terms and are basically a print version of the company's "wish list."
Here's the AMFA agreement for United.
Here's WN's AMFA agreement.
I hope some of this info helps!
However, what does AFA say about...
1. Merging (or similiar transaction) with a larger work-force or company,
2. Merging with a non-union work-force that is larger,
3. Merging with a union work-force that is not AFA?
Danny Campbell
Advanced
- Mar 29, 2008
- 114
- 0
Hi DLSam:
You asked 3 great quetions. The answer to all three of those questions is that AFA "recommends" date-of-hire integration in those scenarios. The reason AFA can only "recommend" in these scenarios is because if both groups are not represented by AFA, than the other parties' union or the other parties' 'employer' gets to push their own agenda. For example, if NWA FAs merged with Delta, we (AFA) would recommend date-of-hire, however Delta executives may completely oppose that idea and could insist on the issue going to arbitration. Once it goes to arbitration, than there is no telling how the arbitrator could rule. However, given the most recent example with the America West/USAir pilots, where the larger and more senior group (the USAir pilots) lost more than decade of seniority to the smaller more junior group, it would be a dangerous gamble for Delta FAs. The reason is because the DL FAs are more senior than we are -- since we had 1000 plus early out retirements over the past few years, as well as over 800 new hires added to our list in 2007.
AFA's complete merger policy can be found here; http://www.afanet.org/cb/default.asp?id=61
Warm Regards,
Danny Campbell, NWA FA & AFA Organizer
[email protected]
You asked 3 great quetions. The answer to all three of those questions is that AFA "recommends" date-of-hire integration in those scenarios. The reason AFA can only "recommend" in these scenarios is because if both groups are not represented by AFA, than the other parties' union or the other parties' 'employer' gets to push their own agenda. For example, if NWA FAs merged with Delta, we (AFA) would recommend date-of-hire, however Delta executives may completely oppose that idea and could insist on the issue going to arbitration. Once it goes to arbitration, than there is no telling how the arbitrator could rule. However, given the most recent example with the America West/USAir pilots, where the larger and more senior group (the USAir pilots) lost more than decade of seniority to the smaller more junior group, it would be a dangerous gamble for Delta FAs. The reason is because the DL FAs are more senior than we are -- since we had 1000 plus early out retirements over the past few years, as well as over 800 new hires added to our list in 2007.
AFA's complete merger policy can be found here; http://www.afanet.org/cb/default.asp?id=61
Warm Regards,
Danny Campbell, NWA FA & AFA Organizer
[email protected]
What I have read regarding the arbitrators decision with the pilots at US/HP, it was based on the fact that he basically felt that HP saved US from liquidation (US was in BK when HP acquired US). So he gave a HUGE advantage to the HP side. DL/NW would be an actual merger both being equal. While anything could happen in arbitration, comparing HP/US to DL/NW is like comparing apples to oranges. If AFA is voted in what portion of our dues stays within DL and how is that amount distrubuted?
Danny Campbell
Advanced
- Mar 29, 2008
- 114
- 0
JakesWord:
I haven't read the actual Nicolau arbitration award in the matter of the US Airways seniority, but I would be very surprised if he cited the financial elements of the two carriers for his basis in the award. That is one of the biggest misconceptions that airline workers have when it comes to merging two seniority list (i.e, that the carrier with the worst balance sheet always gets shafted). That's simply not true. Otherwise, why did the arbitrator protect the top 500 or so pilots at USAirways?
What arbitrators are legally there for -- when it comes to matters in a seniority integration case -- is to carefully analyze what is in the workers Scope, LPP and Successor Transaction parts of their contract. Obviously, in the case of Delta FAs, there is no contract, so that makes you vulnerable at the onset of any arbitration. Combine that with the fact that you are a heavier seniority list, and you have 2 strikes against you before the arbitrator enters the picture.
For a piechart breakdown of how AFA dues money is allocated....click this newsletter http://www.deltaafa.org/aefiles/DeltaWklyNewsLtr9.pdf
I haven't read the actual Nicolau arbitration award in the matter of the US Airways seniority, but I would be very surprised if he cited the financial elements of the two carriers for his basis in the award. That is one of the biggest misconceptions that airline workers have when it comes to merging two seniority list (i.e, that the carrier with the worst balance sheet always gets shafted). That's simply not true. Otherwise, why did the arbitrator protect the top 500 or so pilots at USAirways?
What arbitrators are legally there for -- when it comes to matters in a seniority integration case -- is to carefully analyze what is in the workers Scope, LPP and Successor Transaction parts of their contract. Obviously, in the case of Delta FAs, there is no contract, so that makes you vulnerable at the onset of any arbitration. Combine that with the fact that you are a heavier seniority list, and you have 2 strikes against you before the arbitrator enters the picture.
For a piechart breakdown of how AFA dues money is allocated....click this newsletter http://www.deltaafa.org/aefiles/DeltaWklyNewsLtr9.pdf
Danny
Actually, everything I have read from the US East pilots states that is what the arbitrator based his decision on. I agree that it was not based on a balance sheet is was based on a balance sheet. They way I understand it is that HP was US's only chance of survival and therefore he gave an edge to HP.
On another note, I read the 3/31/08 AFA's Weekly Newsletter for Delta. It states that Alaska F/A's are the highest paid in the industry. I was under the assumption that it was WN followed by AA, or at least that's what several analyst have said. It goes on to say how a 19yr (92hrs a month) NW F/A made $63, 385 in 2007, a 19 yr (90hrs a month) UA F/A made $59,000 in 2007, a 21 yr (85hrs a month) US F/A made $48,000 in 2007, and a 31 yr (85hrs a month) made only $42,000.00 in 2007. At 22 yrs if I fly exactly 85 hrs a month, not pick up any time, I would have made $41,891 in 2007. I flew an average of about 85 hrs a month in 2007, flew OBL-A (Intl Purser), and made just over $50, 000. If I add in my per diem it brings it up to $56, 667. If I add in our Shared Reward payments and what received upon exit from BK I made close to $65,000 in 2007. I am wondering where AFA got the figures they posted in the newsletter and how AFA came up with those numbers? Any information will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.....
First off, (and Danny can correct me if I'm wrong) but the OBL pay wasn't calculated in those averages.
Secondly, the Shared Rewards (usually $75 or $100 per month) were already calculated in your W2s
Also, you're skewing those figures by adding in the per diem IF you're flying Europe, with the exchange rate, I'm sure you spent a good deal of that money. If you didn't, I hope there are no IRS auditors reading this board.
Finally, I don't see how the emergence award could have risen your wages by almost $9,000.
I work here too and mine certainly was NOT anywhere close to $9,000.
Luke
The emergence award was not $9,000. I was stating that if I included the Shared Rewards and emergence award my total 2007 salary would come close to $65,000 (I did round up), it was in the $60,000-$62,500 range(incl perdiem even though I avg 85hr per month it was more around 90). As I stated I did add those items to my annual 2007 income, as I am guessing AFA did in their figures. If you look at the figures AFA has in the newsletter it does not add up. According to their contracts a 19 yr F/A for NW at 92hrs would make $43,895, a 19yr UA F/A at 90hrs using intl rates $45,219, a 21yr HP F/A at 90hrs $40,597, and a 21yr US F/A at 85hrs $39,504. Then we have a 31yr DL F/A at 85hrs that would make $41,891. These are all figures based on hours flown and hourly rate only. Looking at AFA's newsletter, they show NW at $63,385, UA at $59,000, HP at $49,442, US $48,000, and DL at $42,000. The DL amount is right on and based on hourly rate only. NW is listed at about $20,000 above the hourly figure, UA is about $14,000 above, HP is about $9,000 above, and US is about $9,000 above. Based on AFA's calculation a NW F/A is making around $57 per flight hour, a UA F/A $55 per flt hour, a HP F/A $48 per flt hour, a US F/A $47 per flt hour, and a DL F/A $41 per flt hour. If this is true then there is no doubt AFA is the way to go. I can only assume that items such as OBL (lead) pay, per diem, understaffing, and profit sharing is included in all but DL's figures. I am wondering why AFA chose not to compare these figures on an equal basis.
At this point I am leaning toward no. If AFA can't be honest with us right now, how can I believe that they will tell me/us the truth in the future?
Jake, go back to your original posting. This is what you wrote: I flew an average of about 85 hrs a month in 2007, flew OBL-A (Intl Purser), and made just over $50, 000. If I add in my per diem it brings it up to $56, 667. If I add in our Shared Reward payments and what received upon exit from BK ,I made close to $65,000 in 2007.
Anyone reading this would take from it that you made almost $9k in Shared Rewards and BK emergence pay.
As for how AFA got the figures, the newsletter stated they were from one DL FA's W2 (who had 31yrs and averaged 85hrs) and various airlines' FAs W2s. Other than that, it does not talk about Purser/OBL pay or anything else. You wrote "I can only assume" that those items such as OBL pay, profit sharing, per diem, etc..are used in all the other airlines' pay except DL. It's best not to assume. Let's see if an AFA representative or DL FA activist can clear it up. You are so ready to charge AFA with lying. In many ways, though, you are accusing a fellow Delta FA, who wrote the article, of lying. (If those of us who supported AFA were as accusatory as you, we might very well say you weren't being very truthful when you "rounded up"..in your words..your 60-62K figure by 3-5k). I think this "I'm leaning toward no" thing is more than a lean. It's a full- on belly-flop! Otherwise your prejudices and assumptions wouldn't be so negative toward the AFA side or your fellow Delta FAs who are AFA activists.
Finally, it's not AFA who you would be negotiating with during contract time. It is DELTA. And you seem to trust them so there should be no problem for you. Right?
Seems to me the easiest way to compare (taking any round-up or round-down out of the equation) is to do direct comparisons based on the figures that are currently posted for each airline (except SW, since their pay is configured a different way). For example,
1. What does a DL f/a working 85 hrs a month make compared to NW, UAL, US etc , who are also working 85 hrs a month?
2. What does a DL f/a make if you add in domestic per diem compared to other airlines, based on 85 hrs?
3. What does a DL f/a make if you add in international per diem compared to other airlines, based on 85 hrs?
4. What does a DL f/a make if you add in OBL (purser) compared to other airlines, based on 85 hrs?
and so on and so forth....
1. What does a DL f/a working 85 hrs a month make compared to NW, UAL, US etc , who are also working 85 hrs a month?
2. What does a DL f/a make if you add in domestic per diem compared to other airlines, based on 85 hrs?
3. What does a DL f/a make if you add in international per diem compared to other airlines, based on 85 hrs?
4. What does a DL f/a make if you add in OBL (purser) compared to other airlines, based on 85 hrs?
and so on and so forth....
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