tom horton 20 mill approved

[737823]

RTW (for less) dont apply to workers under the RLA.

How is it fair for them to enjoy the benefits of the CBA without having to for its negotiation and enforcement?

The jobs moved to Miami was training, they werent manufacturing jobs, they were white collar jobs and not IAM represented employees.

And DL spends millions hiring union busters.

And companies like DL have "captive audience" meetings when unions cant, so it isnt a level playing field.

Obviously RTW doesn't apply under the RLA, did you even read my post?

There are more unions than just the IAM. Union membership should never be compulsory, if the unions want to represent workers in RTW states those are the terms. The IAM has plenty of members at Lockheed Martin in TX, it doesn't seem to be an issue for them.

The shift also comes as Boeing's flight training pilots, the Airplane Manufacturing Pilots Association, are in contract talks with the company. The bargaining unit is represented by the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA).

The union said the simulators are an integral part of the airplane production and customer support functions in Seattle and are used by engineers.
"Moving these valuable tools thousands of miles from the engineering heart of Boeing is another example of (Boeing) treating engineering as secondary rather than a core function of the company," said Ray Goforth, executive director of SPEEA.

Condelles said the relocation was a business decision unrelated to the talks. "It's nothing to do with labor costs or work rules," he said.
The company already had closed locations in Dallas; Louisville, Ky.; Long Beach, Calif.; and Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minn.

http://www.nbcnews.c...miami-1C8779906

Josh

 

[737823]

sounds a lot like walmart and though my dad is retired from dl he and i have always had our disagreements on union vs non union

Probably because most DL employees like the direct relationship and receive market competitive pay and benefits without union representation. DL employees are in a superior position than UA employees under the failed T/A, UA would only have seven stations protected and higher medical contribution $278 for family vs $247 at DL.

Josh

 

[robbedagain]

most of the dl folks ive been around in my station and theyre a large operatiosn would rather be union than non union atl tends to kill it off

 

[cltrat]

most of the dl folks ive been around in my station and theyre a large operatiosn would rather be union than non union atl tends to kill it off

probably because you and they are at a small station and are rightfully concerned about being contracted out while that is not an issue for the Atl DL workers

 

[Kev3188]

You still haven't answered how it is fair that an AA employee in FL or TX (both RTW states) face compulsory union membership unlike workers in any other industry in those states.

What do you mean "still?"

it is absolutely a fair expectation. If one is so put off by the thought of union membership, then they should not apply to a closed shop.

 

[robbedagain]

while i do not work for dl at my station and i have already been in a station that had been mainline then turned mainline expr only to go back to mainline then out the door permanently esp after 2 other cities went from class 2 to class 1 pvd n bdl

dl at my station has a huge operation but nothin on the scale as to what pi and us used to have and which us took phl over

and dl can outsource any city anytime with little notice but my point is i know a lot of the dl folks who would love to go union but as 700 said before dl has union bustin clowns

no im not bitter about what happen in the past as ive gotten over that and moved on and dealt with it fyi

 

[Kev3188]

probably because you and they are at a small station and are rightfully concerned about being contracted out while that is not an issue for the Atl DL workers

Contracting out isn't a huge issue for ATL, but plenty of other things are. I've said repeatedly that QOL issues will get someone to sign a card just as fast as an economic issue. We're seeing a lot of interest in ATL that wasn't necessarily there before, and really have only the company to thank for that...

 

[WorldTraveler]

while i do not work for dl at my station and i have already been in a station that had been mainline then turned mainline expr only to go back to mainline then out the door permanently esp after 2 other cities went from class 2 to class 1 pvd n bdl

dl at my station has a huge operation but nothin on the scale as to what pi and us used to have and which us took phl over

and dl can outsource any city anytime with little notice but my point is i know a lot of the dl folks who would love to go union but as 700 said before dl has union bustin clowns

no im not bitter about what happen in the past as ive gotten over that and moved on and dealt with it fyi

not sure what you mean by mainline express but Delta Express ended before 9/11.
Mainline Express or not, DL has retained a percentage of jobs since 9/11 than any other network airline.

I have to challenge you about your statement about permanent DL employees who were terminated without an option to participate in a voluntary program or relocate to another city. Please tell me the dates and cities where this has occurred.

DL can and also has insource as well.
Please tell me again in what large hubs other airlines have insourced ground handling for their regional carrier operations as DL has done in ATL, CVG, and now MEM... and maybe I have missed others.

UA/CO at EWR/IAH? AA at DFW/ORD? any of those or any other?

Please remember that DL's regional operation in ATL alone is larger in terms of flights than the mainline operation of every other airline at a US carrier hub except for AA at DFW, IIRC.

not sure what any of this has to do with AA or Horton.. I'm just replying to posts in this thread.

 

[700UW]

Mainline Express was at US, it was a station that was mainline, then went express with one or two mainline flights, and those fleet service made less money than a true mainline station.

It wasnt an airline within airline like Delta Express, Cal Lite, MetroJet, Ted or Song.

Leadership 7.5

 

[robbedagain]

wt dl can outsource any city any time bec of them being non union look at b6 they are about to go up a few more flights from what i heard recently in my station and they only have outsourced people for the ramp not real sure about inside as for dl their mainline employees inside and i think for the ramp its a off shute of dl but not necessarily ml now throw in the ceo millions and they never touched a bag in their life yet they are the ones who are getting millions paid all for screwing with the livelihoods of hard working folks union folks like us i seriously doubt anyone is truly worth millions
just remember seigel's famous line i will not take the gold and run and of course weeks later he did just the opposite what he said
NOW why if tom horton was to get 6.4 mil if he left last yr why is he worth 20 mill now no justification for it at all

 

[FWAAA]

NOW why if tom horton was to get 6.4 mil if he left last yr why is he worth 20 mill now no justification for it at all

Because that's what he negotiated. You're only worth what you can negotiate.

The unsecured creditors committee, which includes the APA, APFA and TWU, agreed to give Horton $20 million. He was promoted the day the Ch 11 petition was filed and oversaw a bankruptcy where unsecured claims are being paid at 100% and even the former shareholders will get a dividend. That's never happened before in any airline bankruptcy - and obviously the creditors (and AAMRQ shareholders) are very pleased with the results.

 

[DallasConehead]

I think the unions agreed to the 20 mil just as the price one has to pay to get rid of the guy.

 

[WorldTraveler]

wt dl can outsource any city any time bec of them being non union ...
just remember seigel's famous line i will not take the gold and run and of course weeks later he did just the opposite what he said
NOW why if tom horton was to get 6.4 mil if he left last yr why is he worth 20 mill now no justification for it at all

Because that's what he negotiated. You're only worth what you can negotiate.

The unsecured creditors committee, which includes the APA, APFA and TWU, agreed to give Horton $20 million. He was promoted the day the Ch 11 petition was filed and oversaw a bankruptcy where unsecured claims are being paid at 100% and even the former shareholders will get a dividend. That's never happened before in any airline bankruptcy - and obviously the creditors (and AAMRQ shareholders) are very pleased with the results.

and yet, 12 years after 9/11 and the enormous cuts that were rendered in BK and have devastated the US airline industry workforce and provided the basis for ongoing reductions, we still have people who believe that labor's ability to retain jobs and pay is untouchable.

Labor has no power to stop the cuts that will take place in the midst of a failed company or a failed economy.

Jobs and pay will be retained by companies who are financially successful (it is with money that employees are paid) and can figure out how to adapt to the endless challenges that are thrown at the airline industry.

There is no evidence that unionization has been any more successful at retaining jobs or pay than at airlines like DL that have done both things without having unions negotiate for the vast majority of their employees. DL's unionized and non-unionized employees ALL benefit from DL being well-run, just as has been the case with WN and B6...

DL can INSOURCE work as well.. which they have done to the benefit of thousands of employees in their airport operations and in maintenance.

Instead of telling us what DL COULD do, how about you tell us the number of jobs and locations where it has occurred where DL's unionized competitors have insourced anywhere close to that many jobs, esp. at their largest hubs.
Let me note again that DL's RJ operation in ATL (worked by DL mainline employees) is larger in terms of flights than the mainline operation at any UA or US hub.
What actually happens in practice is far more indicative of what might happen in the future than the theory that hasn't worked the way labor has hoped.

 

[700UW]

DL at the main terminal in LGA are DL employees the shuttle employees over at MAT are contracted out.

And yet DL flies planes half way across the world to get overhauled or their interiors redone.

777s, 767s and A330s are outsourced.

 

[NYer]

I responded to Josh's post about a "mutual respect" between labor and capital when it comes to organizing. Did you not see it?

C'mon, E; do you really think an employer is *ever* excited about it's employees organizing? Sure, they may play nice in a press release or internal memo, but reality is different. If it weren't, the "union avoidance" industrial complex wouldn't exist.

@Upandaway: I would much prefer to have a union that's respected by a company than one that is liked... Interestingly, I'm not sure I ever see the word respect used in these sorts of conversation. What I see all. the. time. is companies using trite buzzwords like "culture," "choice,' and "direct relationship." YMMV.

If you want to lead the charge in order to get your view of "fair" and not force people to be in a union then you need to start by having the laws changed in which it requires unions to represent everyone in their shop whether pay dues or not. So, if you can get the laws to mirror the fact that someone doesn't want to pay but at the same time they do not get represented then you can have what want.

If the current process is not used, then few people would pay dues while everyone would be represented. That's a recipe to eliminate most unions is a matter of years...