UA transfers its two DAL (Love Field) gates to Southwest; Is DL out?

[WorldTraveler]

we can argue about a proposed transaction that didn't have if you want, but US didn't do it.

DL now has operations spread out across 3 terminals at LGA and would undoubtedly like to consolidate but DL does hold the cards on the ability of other carriers to consolidate and move their operations at LGA.


and yes, DL has just under 100 additional peak-day LGA flights than AA/US combined.

 

[topDawg]

we can argue about a proposed transaction that didn't have if you want, but US didn't do it.

DL now has operations spread out across 3 terminals at LGA and would undoubtedly like to consolidate but DL does hold the cards on the ability of other carriers to consolidate and move their operations at LGA.


and yes, DL has just under 100 additional peak-day LGA flights than AA/US combined.

I am not arguing. Again you are telling me things that are complete wrong. google.com dude. 
 
US Airways Shuttle at LGA will operate out of the Marine Air Terminal while service to Charlotte, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Wilmington will operate from Terminal D. The move to the Marine Air Terminal is expected to occur in early 2010, and US Airways intends to make enhancements to meet the needs of Shuttle customers. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

and again, that was a proposal that never saw the light of day.

I know what was proposed and what actually happened.

US rightly came to the conclusion that it would make ZERO economic sense to have a split operation at a station as small as it now has at LGA.

and the benefit of consolidating US' operation with AA's at LGA is dependent on someone moving out of the CTB. and realistically likely moves within the CTB. no one has agreed to do that and I expect that DL is not going to move until it gets what it wants which might well include gate access in other locations, perhaps DAL and/or LAX.

DL is in the driver's seat at LGA and they aren't going to give it up, esp. given that other carriers have shown a complete unwillingness to work together for the benefit of multiple parties elsewhere.

no reason why DL should roll over at LGA when other carriers are doing what they are doing elsewhere.

 

[700UW]

More useless and baseless threats.

 

[WorldTraveler]

you need help if you think anything I have said here is a threat.

you never seemed to see anyone else's actions at DAL or other airports as threats and yet you come to that conclusion at LGA?

US stupidly gave away 1/4 of the slots at LGA and nearly all of Terminal C to DL. DL has no more obligation to accommodate anyone else at LGA unless DL feels like it gets something out of it.

again, I have no knowledge of the possibilities or discussions, but I would strongly bet that DL has expressed a desire to grant some of the carriers who want space at LGA the ability to do so if DL gains something somewhere else.

 

[robbedagain]

they got more slots at DCA at the time given that DCA is one of the top premier markets..  
 
I still would love to know what kind of deal UA got in order to sublease the 2 gates to UA.  

 

[FWAAA]

they got more slots at DCA at the time given that DCA is one of the top premier markets..

US gave DL three times as many LGA slots as the DCA slots received. Yes, DCA is a top, valuable market, but DCA slots aren't worth three times as much as LGA slots. When DL divested the slots required by the government for its approval of the slot swap, the DCA slots did not sell for three times the money as the LGA slots. Parker got snookered. Anderson clearly won that round.

And it gets even better: when Parker finally was able to take over AA, the DOJ required that AA give up DCA slots equal to AA's entire pre-merger DCA slot holdings, and that was a larger number than US acquired from DL in the slot swap. Result? New AA has fewer DCA slots now that US had before the slot swap with DL. Now, new AA is smaller at both LGA and DCA. Delta clearly got the best of Parker.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and that is an absolutely true post, FWAAA.

and it also partially explains why there is bad blood between AA - both current and pre-merger - and DL.

AA realized the value of those slots and would have loved to get them but Parker had already made the deal with DL.

Anderson was smart enough to keep massaging the deal until it was done knowing full well that the DOJ would never allow AA/US to be larger at DCA than US was when the slot deal was done.

 

[swamt]

and what you can't seem to get thru your head is that if WN has ANY hope of getting DAL expanded, and there is a viable case to argue it should be done, WN will not succeed at doing that if it has kicked out airlines that want to serve DAL and that results in a lawsuit that could undo everything WN has gained.

you don't understand the art of negotiation. WN does.

If you are even close to being right that WN is working on plans to expand DAL and remove the int'l restrictions, they WILL NOT end DL's lease for 1/2 of a gate's worth of flights.

doing that would fall under the category of "cut off your nose to spite your face"

DL likely will support WN's plans to expand DAL but only if DL gets a permanent and expanded role at DAL. the same is equally true of AA whether you can see it or not.


DFW, DAL, Dallas, and Ft. Worth will do what makes business sense and growth is good for both airports... and both airports will get it.

Let's get one thing straight,  SWA is not kicking anyone out of LF.  It will be the decision of the COD if there no longer becomes room to accommodate Delta.  If this does happen then it will be the COD and/or the DOJ that will have to answer any suit that may come up if one does come up.
Secondly;  I was talking about the possibility of increasing the gate cap of 20 to 32, not international flights yet. And again, it will not be SWA that ends Delta at LF with 1/2 a gate.  It would be the results of SWA utilizing their gates to their fullest, SWA ending the temporary lease with Delta that is up in July as they will more than likely be using these gates for the new flights still to be announced.  9 new flights plus added flights to existing destinations.  SWA does not have control over who serves LF, that would be the COD, however, it may come down to flights added by SWA that causes the COD to make the decision that Delta can no longer be accommodated by no longer having the room to do so.  Again let's all wait until July when it will all play out again...

 

[WorldTraveler]

if WN holds the sublease and decides to not renew it, then it absolutely will be WN's decision to push DL out of DAL.

Yes, COD is responsible for not creating leases that did not provide for common use gates as nearly every other airport has.

but WN will have made the decision to terminate the sublease - if they do - and trying to push DL off on VX - which isn't using its gates to full potential while WN moans about how it needs more space but will take every availlble gate and flight time it can get at the current DAL simply WILL NOT FLY.

WN execs are smarter than you. If they have even a prayer of expanding DAL or removing any of the current restrictions, they will leave DL at the size it is - which is half of a gate - in order to get DL's support for an expansion that will give DL and WN - as well as likely AA - access to more gates in the future.

 

[FWAAA]

Federal law passed by a majority of Congress and signed by the President in 2006 exempted DAL from a requirement to lease gates on a common-use basis. DAL is excused from eliminating preferential leases unless the government requires all airports nationwide to eliminate preferential leases. So far, the government has not taken that step.

Absent a successful claim that the law is unconstitutional (under what part of the Constitution would one make that claim?), the only remedy for outsiders looking in is the scarce-use provisions of the existing leases.

DAL is the only airport in the country where lawmakers have set down different rules about new entrants.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-109publ352/pdf/PLAW-109publ352.pdf

 

[swamt]

Correct FWAA.  This is where most outsiders have a difficult time understanding the situation at DAL LF, it is in fact different than any other airport out there.  This is partly why I have said Delta would be wasting their money and time trying to sue.  However, with that said, I think Delta would be better focusing on changing the regulations to allow more entrants into LF which I guess could in fact be done thru suits or other legal remedies thru the courts...

 

[robbedagain]

thanks FWAA  

 

[FWAAA]

Correct FWAA.  This is where most outsiders have a difficult time understanding the situation at DAL LF, it is in fact different than any other airport out there.  This is partly why I have said Delta would be wasting their money and time trying to sue.  However, with that said, I think Delta would be better focusing on changing the regulations to allow more entrants into LF which I guess could in fact be done thru suits or other legal remedies thru the courts...

Here's where I completely disagree. Absent consent by the DFW bondholders, DAL ain't getting any larger. Absent consent by AA, DAL ain't getting any larger. Under the concept of judicial review, courts can overturn acts of Congress if the law is in conflict with the Constitution. I've asked, and nobody has articulated any cogent constitutional infirmity with the WARA. It's an evolution of the long-standing restrictions at DAL, in which Congress, WN, AA, plus DFW and Fort Worth and Dallas all played integral roles over the years.

Southwest wanted the ability to fly anywhere from DAL, and they got it. The price was a much smaller airport (in terms of capacity) than the DAL runways can handle. DAL could easily support 64 gates again, like it used to. But the people who loaned billions to build DFW aren't about to let that happen.

Maybe in 10 years or 20 years, the new current restrictions on DAL will be revised. But if anybody is sitting around right now thinking that DAL will have 32 gates by 2018 or 2020, they really should put down the graphic novels and focus on reality instead, and that reality is a 20-gate airport.

Fort Worth and the DFW bondholders don't want to see their airport situation get any closer to the Narita-Haneda situation that plagues Tokyo. DAL's runways could handle 500 daily departures if there were enough gates. DAL gets big enough, DFW's financial viability could be threatened, and those bondholders generally get their way.

I think there's a possibility down the road that DAL gets closed. How? Build a high-speed, cheap , mass transit rail option from the center of Dallas to DFW. Boring machines and a few billion dollars and all of a sudden, DFW ain't out in the middle of nowhere from downtown Dallas. And I'm sure that some NIMBYs who live near DAL would welcome some peace and quiet. Not everyone is cheering the increased air traffic at DAL.

MDW doesn't have any high-rent district neighbors (it's on the South Side of Chicago), but DAL does. The area around DAL isn't the poor part of Dallas.

 

[eolesen]

DAL is the only airport in the country where lawmakers have set down different rules about new entrants.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-109publ352/pdf/PLAW-109publ352.pdf

Yep. Been explained at least monthly here since DL decided they wanted to do a focus city. Maybe one of these times it will sink in. 
 

I think there's a possibility down the road that DAL gets closed. How? Build a high-speed, cheap , mass transit rail option from the center of Dallas to DFW. Boring machines and a few billion dollars and all of a sudden, DFW ain't out in the middle of nowhere from downtown Dallas. And I'm sure that some NIMBYs who live near DAL would welcome some peace and quiet. Not everyone is cheering the increased air traffic at DAL.

That cheap, mass transit rail option is already built, and opened last August. DART offers a one-seat option from downtown Dallas on the Orange Line, and there's even a station right next to WN's headquarters.

http://www.dart.org/maps/pdfmaps/DARTOrangeLineMapmay10.pdf

The DART station is walking distance to Terminal A, otherwise it's a quick hop via the terminal link bus.

It's not the LHR Express, but it's better than what you have at any of the LA or NYC airports, and on-par with the options available at world class airports like CDG, ORD, DCA, and ATL.