Union vs Non Union My Response

[Vimes]

A one time AMFA member gave a bit of a speech to several other employees one day at work (DTW) about why he felt everyone should sign a card requesting a vote for union representation. He stated the workers, were underpaid and needed the protection of union representation. He strongly stated the union would be there to protect all the workers from the money grubbing over indulged CEO’s. The union would be there to force the company to treat all the workers fairly and raise the wages across the industry. He implored that without this representation the workers would be working for sweat shop wages in unsafe condition being taken advantage of by the companies slave masters which only want to profit by taking advantage of the work force.

We stood and listened, some shook their heads in agreement while others were visibly pondering his words. I raised my hand. This is what followed……

“I just want to get this straight. You want me to sign a card requesting a union vote for my protection. You want me to agree to pay money out of my paycheck for protection to an organization, so that that same organization can use some of the money collected from all of these peoples paychecks to blackmail the company we all work for. At which point, should this organizations threats and blackmail be unsuccessful I would be expected to walk off my job which would harm this company and cause me to go without a paycheck while the leaders of this organization would still be receiving their paychecks. So in short you want me to PAY for protection, in order to blackmail the company I work for and use my money to support politicians I may not necessarily support personally and you also want to use my money to pay other people to tell me I already do not make enough money? To me that sounds a lot like the Mafia and certainly sounds like racketeering. Though I certainly do not feel underpaid I do not need anymore money coming out of my paycheck and certainly not to pay people to tell me I do not make enough money to begin with. From what I have seen I do not need protection from my company or its management what I may need protection from is you and your “union brothers†with your threats of violence and the recent history of violence some of the union members from the very union you once belonged to engaged in. Grow up, if you do not like your job or you think you are treated so poorly there is a simple solution…QUIT. This is American we are not “allocated jobs†in this country we have the choice to work for a company or not. Further unions go out of their way not to recognize superior performance or superior ability rather the only workers the union seems to attempt to protect are those which can not do the job. Sorry I will not pay protection money to any organization I do not care if you call it The Mafia or A Union they seem the same to me.

Oh and how is that union thing working out for thousands of auto workers? Looks like they blackmailed the entire industry into bankruptcy to me.

 

[HottootrotNyc]

So basically in your opinion, fighting for equal rights, pay, and protection, and making sure you keep that pay, benefits, and work rules, is considered "Blackmailing" the company. If I was the person giving the speech, I would of told you where to go and what to do with it.

 

[bagboy]

That is one messed up point of view on the history of unions, what unions do for employees and the history of AFMA vs. NWA and the army of SCABS. Same old line from the uninformed though. "If you don't like it, quit." I can work for a union company or non-union. It is intolerance that I can't stand to work with.

 

[Kev3188]

Vimes--

You're a little late to the game. The company already has plenty of anti-union plants lurking around on here. When you report back to your handlers, make sure you let them know you need a new website to go to.


P.S. You also might want to let them know that AMFA at NW/DL has been decertified as the bargaining agent... Or maybe you're just getting an early start on thwarting the next card drive?

 

[Vimes]

Vimes--

You're a little late to the game. The company already has plenty of anti-union plants lurking around on here. When you report back to your handlers, make sure you let them know you need a new website to go to.


P.S. You also might want to let them know that AMFA at NW/DL has been decertified as the bargaining agent... Or maybe you're just getting an early start on thwarting the next card drive?

Kev,

I am no anti-union plant nor do I have any "handlers". I am a college educated mechanic who is capable of independent thought. I do not require anyone to think for me. I am fully aware AMFA has been de-certified but sadly there are still some who feel the need to have a different organization doing the thinking for them. I am not working on a jump start to any card drive merely expressing my opinion because it seems to be a subject that has permeated the boards and was brought up recently to me at work. I have been reading these boards since 2004 but this was the first time I chose to post. I know you feel your opinions are of value as they are all over the NW board and the DELTA board, so I believe my opinion is of equal value.

 

[Vimes]

So basically in your opinion, fighting for equal rights, pay, and protection, and making sure you keep that pay, benefits, and work rules, is considered "Blackmailing" the company. If I was the person giving the speech, I would of told you where to go and what to do with it.

HottootrotNyc,

"fighting for" indicates starting from a position of antagonism which is one of the first problems. Equal Rights are not the same thing as job protection, or equal pay, or benefits. Equal Rights are a human right, job protection is earned, equal pay (based solely on job performance) is earned, and benefits are earned. It is only common sense that for a company to prosper so must its employees. Happy employees treat customers in a caring manner where as unhappy employees tend to treat customers in a surely manner; therefore it is only in the companies interest that the employees are rewarded for a job well done. Part of the problem is so many employees feel like they should be running the company rather than those who are. Who is running the company is not relevant as an employee it is not my job to try to usurp the board of directors. If I felt that strongly that I could run the company better then I would go get an MBA and go after upper management. That is not the course I have chosen rather I have chosen to do my job to ensure the safety of the flying public and my fellow employees and to go home to my family and keep my nose where it belongs which is out of the board room. I am not saying I will ever agree with everything upper management does what I am saying is that is why they are upper management and we are employees. By the way, I am aware there are some excellent MBA programs in NYC.

I can not comment on the flight attendants situation as I am not a flight attendant; however I would suggest looking at the whole of the picture with a less antagonistic view and a view more in keeping with working together for a better out come for everyone, the company, management and all the employees, not just the employees in your particular clique "union".

I can not forget nor forgive the mechanics standing outside NWA shouting about wanting to shut the airline down, nor the state in which they chose to leave things. How dare this group of people presume to have the right to affect the lives potentially so dramatically of every other NWA employee. It was a pathetic display of an adult temper tantrum which could have put thousands of hard working people out of jobs and out of benefits. That my dear is utter unforgivable gall.

 

[Vimes]

That is one messed up point of view on the history of unions, what unions do for employees and the history of AFMA vs. NWA and the army of SCABS. Same old line from the uninformed though. "If you don't like it, quit." I can work for a union company or non-union. It is intolerance that I can't stand to work with.

Bagboy,


I am sorry you do not understand my point of view of the current state of unions. However consider a few things.
1. UAW employees getting a 25 THOUSAND DOLLAR voucher for a new vehicle while the car companies are getting tax dollars, because its a union negotiated requirement. How much does this union negotiated benefit cost the everyday car buyer?
2. Negotiating higher wages at the DIRECT expense of "union brothers & sisters" jobs AMFA
3. One single work group should never have the right to terminate the employment of the entire company by shutting the company down, not to mention completely ruining the plans of thousands of paying flying everyday passengers.
4. Union management living as extravagantly as the very CEO's they complain about at the expense of the everyday hard working man and woman.
5. A union creating a "job bank" where no employee ever gets truly laid off instead they sit around and play cards and receive a full paycheck, sucking the very life out of the company.
6. Union members committed murdered and arson in MN paper mill strike.
7. Of course the IAM would actually have to do something to have a record of anything other than jello, although the did negotiate away hundreds of direct jobs and allowed them to be replaced by contractors at Lear.
8. Union management failing to be honest with its membership about the state of the economy and the financial state of the company and the real labor pool and what is genuinely in the employees best interest.

That covers several industries, I could go on and on. I know unions and their history and I grew up in a union household. I am just willing to look at the entire picture not just a narrowed propoganda designed focus.

 

[Airlinelifer]

Bagboy,


I am sorry you do not understand my point of view of the current state of unions. However consider a few things.
1. UAW employees getting a 25 THOUSAND DOLLAR voucher for a new vehicle while the car companies are getting tax dollars, because its a union negotiated requirement. How much does this union negotiated benefit cost the everyday car buyer?
2. Negotiating higher wages at the DIRECT expense of "union brothers & sisters" jobs AMFA
3. One single work group should never have the right to terminate the employment of the entire company by shutting the company down, not to mention completely ruining the plans of thousands of paying flying everyday passengers.
4. Union management living as extravagantly as the very CEO's they complain about at the expense of the everyday hard working man and woman.
5. A union creating a "job bank" where no employee ever gets truly laid off instead they sit around and play cards and receive a full paycheck, sucking the very life out of the company.
6. Union members committed murdered and arson in MN paper mill strike.
7. Of course the IAM would actually have to do something to have a record of anything other than jello, although the did negotiate away hundreds of direct jobs and allowed them to be replaced by contractors at Lear.
8. Union management failing to be honest with its membership about the state of the economy and the financial state of the company and the real labor pool and what is genuinely in the employees best interest.

That covers several industries, I could go on and on. I know unions and their history and I grew up in a union household. I am just willing to look at the entire picture not just a narrowed propoganda designed focus.

You have your opinion, this is the America. But I'm not going to sit and see my benefits get flushed down the toilet because some big wigs decided that the only way to survive as an airline was to merge. This is what I get out of this: elimination or degradation of benefits. If the union is decertified I will lose more benefits with this merger than I did during bankruptcy.
Pension, gone, medical and OJI accrual, gone, layoff contract language, gone.

What I did see from you guys was weak. When the company stripped your benefits, you guys shrugged your shoulders and feebly muttered "ok", because their wasn't a damned thing you guys could have done.
Pathetic...

 

[Guinness767]

I have to echo- Pathetic! Unions are the reason there is any protections at all for labor. Just to bring out a few points you gloss over: MANY more businesses have been destroyed by bad management than by bad unions. Every upper management type is in a union, their OWN union of one. They each have an individual contract, they would not come to work without it. If they don't like something they CAN quit because their contract gives them a nice golden parachute. Why do you rant against uaw contract provisions and not management ones like an instant 25 years of service, protected pensions, private jets, pay hundreds of times yours in spite of how much they screw up? Why can't you realize that managements today are a bunch of mercenaries, here for the short term to take as much as they can from the corporate coffers before moving on like a horde of locusts to the next company? You are here for the long term and a union can help protect you from these vandals who will use employees to enrich themselves at every opportunity. They care nothing for 'happy' employees because they will be gone in a year or two and could care less what wreckage they leave behind. Witness Leo Mullen!

Are unions perfect? Hardly. But they are the only way employees have of standing up for themselves against the greed and avarice that permeates modern management in America. That is why they came about in the first place all those years ago. All the protections unions won like vacation time, pensions, decent pay, etc., they are very quickly being eroded. Is it a coincidence that unionism is at an all time low? Yet management keeps inventing new benefits for themselves and taking ever more from the corporate piggy bank. Where does that come from? From the employees! Why? Because they say so, that's why and without a union you can do nothing but take it or 'quit' and hope to start at the bottom somewhere else. How about a different approach? Instead of quitting, get together and stand up to these parasites who have been here a year or two to the average employee's 15-20 years and demand to be included when the goodies are handed out. You deserve a voice as it is your blood, sweat and tears that built these companies, not theirs. And that means a union friend. You have earned a place at the table but without banding together you will be ignored and trampled upon with impunity. Isn't it ironic that the same management types that tell you you have no need of a contract would not think about coming to work without one. Why is that?? In the end, if it is good enough for RA then it should be good enough for you as well.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[bagboy]

That covers several industries, I could go on and on. I know unions and their history and I grew up in a union household. I am just willing to look at the entire picture not just a narrowed propoganda designed focus.

Still a messed up point of view. Unions have done more for you at DL than you may wish to admit. Your work week, vacation, pay, are all at a standard due to the unions. Like it or not.

 

[Dignity]

I would like to comment regarding what I just read...

"fighting for" indicates starting from a position of antagonism which is one of the first problems.

what "fighting for" really boils down to is simply caring..

Equal Rights are not the same thing as job protection, or equal pay, or benefits. Equal Rights are a human right, job protection is earned, equal pay (based solely on job performance) is earned, and benefits are earned.

you need to read what you wrote, and then again, and then think about what you wrote..(really think about that comment) especially regarding pay and benefits...(equal pay in the workplace)

It is only common sense that for a company to prosper so must its employees. Happy employees treat customers in a caring manner where as unhappy employees tend to treat customers in a surely manner; therefore it is only in the companies interest that the employees are rewarded for a job well done.

happy people treat others in a caring manner most of the times in all situations, human beings treat others like they should be treated regardless of employment status or place of employment and I hope you understand what that means.

Part of the problem is so many employees feel like they should be running the company rather than those who are. Who is running the company is not relevant as an employee it is not my job to try to usurp the board of directors.

not relevant?

If I felt that strongly that I could run the company better then I would go get an MBA and go after upper management. That is not the course I have chosen rather I have chosen to do my job to ensure the safety of the flying public and my fellow employees and to go home to my family and keep my nose where it belongs which is out of the board room.

that suggest the idea of teamwork from the top to the front line, working together as a team doesnt matter.

I am not saying I will ever agree with everything upper management does what I am saying is that is why they are upper management and we are employees.

anyone who works at a company is considered an employee, that includes 'upper management'

I can not comment on the flight attendants situation as I am not a flight attendant; however I would suggest looking at the whole of the picture with a less antagonistic view and a view more in keeping with working together for a better out come for everyone, the company, management and all the employees, not just the employees in your particular clique "union".

but then you went ahead and gave a suggestion. what I think you might be very surprised to realize is how many people, Flight Attendants, truly do view the big picture especially future success for all...(and keep that close and a priority)

I can not forget nor forgive the mechanics standing outside NWA shouting about wanting to shut the airline down, nor the state in which they chose to leave things. How dare this group of people presume to have the right to affect the lives potentially so dramatically of every other NWA employee. It was a pathetic display of an adult temper tantrum which could have put thousands of hard working people out of jobs and out of benefits. That my dear is utter unforgivable gall.

just because one person views a situation (or personal opinion) in one manner does not necessarily equate "utter unforgivable gall".

 

[Kev3188]

Kev,

I have been reading these boards since 2004 but this was the first time I chose to post.

Opus, er Vimes--

So let me get this straight: You sat quiet through the whole maelstrom that took place on these boards during 05, and only now have chosen to post? Is that correct? Why didn't you say anything then?

 

[T5towbar]

I've only one quote for why there are unions, or collective bargaining.

"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will."
Frederick Douglass - 1857


Need I say more.........

 

[jalbalpa]

So in short you want me to PAY for protection, in order to blackmail the company I work for and use my money to support politicians I may not necessarily support personally

This is nothing but a myth. Unions may not use member dues to support any political figure, it is illegal. Members may donate money to the union via the PAC fund and that money is used to support politicians who will further the cause of the membership.

Hopefully this myth has been busted!

 

[dapoes]

This is nothing but a myth. Unions may not use member dues to support any political figure, it is illegal. Members may donate money to the union via the PAC fund and that money is used to support politicians who will further the cause of the membership.

Hopefully this myth has been busted!

Good luck with that fantasy of yours. :down: