US incident at PHL

[robbedagain]

apologizes for that.   what happened to the cargo n bags that were on the 1702 flight    were they allowed to be taken off or no

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

View attachment 10092

 

[usjacket]

From another forum. Your "tech guy" may be correct. It looks like a hard tail strike.

image.jpg

Well there ya go. Could be the reason the nose tire blew and nose gear collapse. Slamming down the nose gear after a tail strike could do that.

 

[1AA]

Well there ya go. Could be the reason the nose tire blew and nose gear collapse. Slamming down the nose gear after a tail strike could do that.

If you take a closer look at the photo you can see that the outline of the hit is oval compared to the original shape of the fuselage. The center of the oval which appears to be the center of the impact or the hardest hit is probably the pressure bulkhead. Fifth stringer from forward to aft of the damage. Chances are the pressure bulkhead took a hit that will probably be unrepairable. The access door that is open in the photo is aft of the pressure bulkhead.

 

[700UW]

US has had an A321 repaired by CLT mechanics in line hanger with the pressure bulkhead damaged.

 

[snapthis]

Well there ya go. Could be the reason the nose tire blew and nose gear collapse. Slamming down the nose gear after a tail strike could do that.

Certainly a possibility. From the FOM:

2d.3Rotation & Lift-Off
2d.3.1Rotation and Lift-off.
At VR, initiate the rotation to achieve a continuous rotation with a rate of about 3° per second toward a pitch attitude of 15°. Minimize lateral inputs on the ground and during rotation, to avoid spoiler extension. After lift-off, follow the SRS pitch command bar. Once a positive rate of climb has been established, the PM states "Positive Rate," and the PFcommands, "Gear Up."
Tail Strike during Takeoff.
The main factors that result in tail strikes are early rotation, over-rotation, excessive pitch, or some combination. Early rotation can occur:
If using a flap setting that is inconsistent with the computed VR,
If attempting to avoid birds or obstacles, or
When applying the recommended windshear technique with less than 2000 feet of runway remaining.
To avoid a tail strike as a result of early rotation, do not begin to rotate prior to the PMs "Rotate" callout. Over-rotation and excessive pitch are usually associated with engine out procedures, dual inputs from both pilots, the aircraft being out of trim, or the aircraft being loaded improperly. By referring to the table below and comparing the Demonstrated Lift-Off Pitch Attitude figures with the Critical Pitch Attitude (Struts Compressed) figures, you will note that the margin for error is very small. To ensure the aircraft arrives at the proper pitch attitude without exceeding the margin of error, rotate the aircraft at a normal rotation rate of 3° of pitch per second. This rotation rate will result in the aircraft arriving at the flight director commanded pitch attitude of 15°-18° in 5-6 seconds.
The chart below depicts aircraft-specific figures relating to pitch. Row one shows the pitch at which a tail strike can occur with the main gear struts fully extended. Row two displays the aircrafts pitch at which a tail strike can occur with struts fully compressed. The third row lists the pitch at which the aircraft lifted off the ground during aircraft certification tests. By a quick comparison of the figures, it is easy to see that the pitch attitudes on the A321 aircraft are approximately 4° lower when compared to the A319 fleet of aircraft.

Critical Pitch (StrutsExtended)
15.5° 319
13.5° 320
11.2° 321
Critical Pitch Attitude (Struts Compressed)
13.9° 319
11.7° 320
9.7° 321
Demonstrated Lift-off Pitch Attitude
12.5° 319
9.5°. 320
8.5°. 321

 

[700UW]

Interesting videos:
 
http://youtu.be/GIn6gK9FJJQ
 
http://www.airspacemag.com/videos/category/flight-today/ptq-put-together-quickly/?no-ist

 

[algflyr]

Again, without all the information, it's hard to really say what happened. Is it possible the tire blew first right around V1? If that happened, the nose would probably drop a bit and start to shake a lot. The natural tendency could be to take the pressure off the wheel by starting to rotate. Did they over-rotate? Possibly. Maybe during the rotation they had engine trouble that they decided they didn't want to take in the air and the abort resulted in the tailstrike and then a hard force on the nosegear causing collapse. Is that a possible scenario? I think it could be.
 
Until we get the actual sequence of events, it's really hard to tell what really happened... When did the tire blow? Before or after rotation? When did the tail strike? On rotation or after the abort? I would think this information should be available rather quickly.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Nose tire shreds and is ingested into #1 engine just at V1?

Is it true that The "enhanced" A321's at US have a pitch warning during landing and flare, but don't have anything during takeoff/rotation?

 

[700UW]

Did the tire FOD the #1 engine too is another question.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Somebody brought up the possibility of a load shift in the aft cargo bin.  Would explain the over rotation due to a big cg shift.    Could explain why they elected to not try to fly after v-1.
 
Not enough info out there yet to say one way or another.   Anybody know if the plane had palletized cargo onboard?

 

[700UW]

The A320 does not have a container nor a pallet cargo loading system at US, it is all bulk loaded.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Ok,  I have seen some large stuff loaded on planes I have flown but was not sure if we used pallets from time to time on the small bus.
 
I have had cases when it was clear that the advertised trim setting for takeoff from the final weight and balance was incorrect once you got to rotation (very heavy nose on rotation)  but don't recall ever feeling it as being "nose light"
 
Though to cause this it would have to be a trim set way out of limits or a large shift/unreported weight loaded.

 

[cltrat]

mx friend said plane is a total loss nose gear is in the cockpit

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

Thanks for the video, 700!  Very cool.  (I'd hate to see that repair bill.)