US Pilot Labor Thread 10/5 to 10/12 KEEP ON TOPIC

[Richard]

Here is the new topic for the week for the Pilots. I am going to remind you one last time to stop the personal snipes and insults- it's getting out of hand again.

You MAY comment ALL you want about the issues or the posts.

You MAY NOT comment about the posters or insult/attack another person.

We are TRYING to give you guys and gals some leeway, but some of you are still crossing the line....

KEEP ON TOPIC and DO NOT MAKE IT PERSONAL.

Thank you!

 

[Old Guy]

]Here is a question for the pilots that have been through the mergers since the "Allegheng -Mohawk" Days. What ever happened to your seniorty language ?In my days here since the Allegheny days, I can't recall any dispute over seniorty in the pilot ranks. Wasn't that language fair to all?

 

[CAVOK]

]Here is a question for the pilots that have been through the mergers since the "Allegheng -Mohawk" Days. What ever happened to your seniorty language ?In my days here since the Allegheny days, I can't recall any dispute over seniorty in the pilot ranks. Wasn't that language fair to all?

In a word: yes. If you didn't like date of hire, you should have gotten hired earlier. I put off my class date by one month and have been sorry ever since. With each merger I am affected one more time.

I was extremely surprised went ALPA changed from a DOH language. Now the pilots that had DOH removed in a self-serving vote, United, are now for DOH along with a national seniority list.

 

[prechilill]

Now the pilots that had DOH removed in a self-serving vote, United, are now for DOH

NO they aren't! This is the problem with the internet- people can post false statements like the one above and get away with it.

 

[boeingdriver213]

In a word: yes. If you didn't like date of hire, you should have gotten hired earlier. I put off my class date by one month and have been sorry ever since. With each merger I am affected one more time.

I was extremely surprised went ALPA changed from a DOH language. Now the pilots that had DOH removed in a self-serving vote, United, are now for DOH along with a national seniority list.

A national seniotity list will never happen as long as there are separate unions out there representing pilots at the various carriers. Also I can't see any airline pilot group allowing their seniority to be abrogated by such a list in this current climate. Date of hire should have never been eliminated, and if not for the selfish interests of a few ALPA carriers, it would still be here. I can see the day when those pilot groups will regret the move they made....

 

[flynomore]

Since I don't have Jim's experience on the bid closing committe, it seems to my simple mind a couple of problems aren't addressed in this executive summary of the conditions and restrictions.

1. West attrition is reserved for West Pilots sounds nice, but what of F/O attrition? At some point senior east F/O could bid an unbid position when no other available west bidders do. So would Roger Eastman get to bid the number one F/O in PHX instead of PHL?

2. Assume Dave gets recalled to the E190. Does he still have a PHX/LAS spot or did he just open it up to straight DOH? What if he has a choice on recall date of PHX or PHL, does his choice change the reserved spots?

3. Now that the PHX/LAS numbers are below the reserved places, what happens if 100 or so west go to PHL to fly? Do just those spots open up or is the new base number the decrease minus the 100 who moved?

4. What if a west F/O bids one of the reserved E190 spots as Captain for upgrade? Does that spot then open or is it still reserved west since this west pilot is moved from one reserved spot to another?

There are sure to be more. Ciao.

 

[CAVOK]

NO they aren't! This is the problem with the internet- people can post false statements like the one above and get away with it.

From USAPA update 9-8-2008

For all of our pilots, after approximately three years dealing with seniority integration issues culminating in the uprising of a majority of the US Airways Pilots and a representational election replacing a bargaining agent that refused to recognize the value of a pilot’s service, a long held prediction appears close to fruition - the nearly 8,000 pilots of United Airlines have proposed a resolution recognizing a pilot’s length of service with his former company during a merger.

In their resolution, the UAL MEC states that “the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual members’ ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another, thereby allowing a manipulation of their entire career path by the actions of the very same capitalist cabal whose fundamental goal is to limit, degrade and minimize the essential role of pilots to the airline industry.â€

The United Pilots also state that “the parochial company loyalty, historically embraced by ALPA pioneers of previous eras, has been perverted and used against ALPA members as a capitalist leveraging tool that stifles the inherent right of professional pilots to collectively negotiate an economically sound and stable ratio of pay and work rules for identical job responsibilities using the continual underlying threat of losing the earned seniority benefits derived from their professional longevity at a particular airline while being compared to the economics of another airline (whipsawing).â€

Their resolution proclaims that “a national seniority list would assure a logical and rational adherence to a measurable, protected status of those pilots from a commonly defined starting point in their professional careers regardless of how many airlines may exist, regardless of the skill and economic acumen of the managements that run them, and regardless of the transient political influence of the day.â€

Within the above referenced resolution, the United Pilots are resolving by resolution that their collective bargaining agent “set and fix a methodology recognizing ‘benchmarks of career achievement’ with associated ‘exercise rights’ in order to minimize unrealistic windfalls/detriments to any pilot unless and until those common benchmarks have been met, regardless of whether the benchmarks have been achieved at an ALPA carrier or not.â€

"Seniority, longevity, ...fundamental union principals"

 

[CAVOK]

A national seniotity list will never happen as long as there are separate unions out there representing pilots at the various carriers. Also I can't see any airline pilot group allowing their seniority to be abrogated by such a list in this current climate. Date of hire should have never been eliminated, and if not for the selfish interests of a few ALPA carriers, it would still be here. I can see the day when those pilot groups will regret the move they made....

I agree about the national seniority list, but the point is they are standing up for seniority, longevity ... fundamental union principals.

 

[cactusboy53]

....
I was extremely surprised went ALPA changed from a DOH language. Now the pilots that had DOH removed in a self-serving vote, United, are now for DOH along with a national seniority list.

SIXTEEN YEARS + AGO!! With the involvement of US AIR pilots!!

I was extremely surprised that after legal process that we collectively went through, that final and binding arbitration will have to be legally forced on the former US AIR pilots. I am further surprised that the $60K that a senior pilot loses per annum in wages, benefits and time off will NEVER BE recouped. I am still surprised that after 60+ years of a "national seniority" system being discussed, those in favor can not figure out that the training costs to allow more senior pilots to "slide" into senior positions would bankrupt a company in very short order.

The AWA pilots will NOT roll over. There are hundreds (and the number is growing) of US Air pilots that are figuring out that Bradford is selling a bag of dreams that can not be attained. Tick tock, tick tock.

 

[Megasnoop]

NO they aren't! This is the problem with the internet- people can post false statements like the one above and get away with it.

Ouch, Prechi. Looks like CAVOK burned you good on that one.

Not to repeat the entire quote,
“the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual members’ ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another, thereby allowing a manipulation of their entire career path â€￾
"Seniority, longevity, ...fundamental union principals"

In a nutshell, the original 1992 puveyers of merger without DOH are afraid of getting bit by their own maneuvering. This was one scathing attack on ALPOs merger policy. With the break-up of UAL coming this winter, theyre a bit testy about ALPOs "fair and equitable." If they liked the ALPO merger policy, theyll LOVE the fragmentation part. NOT! Snooper

 

[CAVOK]

SIXTEEN YEARS + AGO!! With the involvement of US AIR pilots!!

tick,tock, tick tock.

I understand that the majority of the West pilots were not on the property in 1991 and that the last on their seniority list was barely out of high school when ALPA changed the policy. Maybe I can explain it.

US Air pilots were not in favor of the change. All of the ALPA mergers at US Air were date of hire. Allegheny/Mohawk, US Air/Piedmont, US Air/PSA. United had not only expanded enormously between 1985 and 1991, but had benefited from retirements. Their last merger with Pan Am, of which my father and my cousin were a part of, was date of hire. United pilots benefited by getting the entire Pacific to fly and acquiring a senior but soon to retire workforce.

The ALPA policy was changed by the now junior pilot group concerned about merging with another more senior airline. It was extremely shortsighted. Sixteen years later, they are rethinking it. They have had a front row seat in the ALPA AAA/AWA attempt at a merger and they don't like it. Even the NWA and DAL pilots have wanted three arbitrators now after seeing the mess that ALPA created.

 

[prechilill]

Ouch, Prechi. Looks like CAVOK burned you good on that one.

Not to repeat the entire quote,
“the most unfulfilled professional benefit, recognized by all airline pilots and by ALPA members specifically, is the lack of a policy, derived from fundamental union principals, that enables and enforces the individual members’ ability to transfer their seniority, longevity, and operational experience as professionals from one airline employer to another, thereby allowing a manipulation of their entire career path â€￾
"Seniority, longevity, ...fundamental union principals"

In a nutshell, the original 1992 puveyers of merger without DOH are afraid of getting bit by their own maneuvering. This was one scathing attack on ALPOs merger policy. With the break-up of UAL coming this winter, theyre a bit testy about ALPOs "fair and equitable." If they liked the ALPO merger policy, theyll LOVE the fragmentation part. NOT! Snooper

Thanks for the EXACT quote from the UAL MEC. Show me again where it says DOH is to be used in a MERGER? That's what I thought. You are sooo bent on DOH in a merger argument your imagination runs wild with you guys... like a thirsty man wandering in the desert chasing the elusive mirage on the horizon. CAVOK has not a clue of what he reads and this is why you guys can't figure out the world around you.
I find it hilarious you thought you are posting a "gotcha". LOL My goodness you guys are blinded with rage- you don't even know what you are reading or saying most of the time. SHow me where the above quote says anything about DOH in A MERGER. Let's pull this little piece

"from one airline employer to another" That doesn't sound like using DOH in a merger.

 

[prechilill]

From USAPA update 9-8-2008

CAVOK
Next time you want to cite a reference for an opinion, you can't gain too much legitimacy by citing yourself or your friends as evidence. In higher education this is a fundamental principle in arguments, be it medicine, dentistry or science.
Just wanted to clue you in.

Peace.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Thanks for the EXACT quote from the UAL MEC. Show me again where it says DOH is to be used in a MERGER? That's what I thought. You are sooo bent on DOH in a merger argument your imagination runs wild with you guys... like a thirsty man wandering in the desert chasing the elusive mirage on the horizon. CAVOK has not a clue of what he reads and this is why you guys can't figure out the world around you.
I find it hilarious you thought you are posting a "gotcha". LOL My goodness you guys are blinded with rage- you don't even know what you are reading or saying most of the time. SHow me where the above quote says anything about DOH in A MERGER. Let's pull this little piece

"from one airline employer to another" That doesn't sound like using DOH in a merger.

It would appear to most observers that any rage shown here is from west of the mississippi.

Maybe in your small minded universe it doesn't say that, but I interpret as saying EXACTLY that. The resolution even mentions giving DOH credit to non-ALPA carriers. Certainly a first to my knowledge.

 

[cactusboy53]

I understand that the majority of the West pilots were not on the property in 1991 and that the last on their seniority list was barely out of high school when ALPA changed the policy. Maybe I can explain it.

US Air pilots were not in favor of the change. All of the ALPA mergers at US Air were date of hire. Allegheny/Mohawk, US Air/Piedmont, US Air/PSA. United had not only expanded enormously between 1985 and 1991, but had benefited from retirements. Their last merger with Pan Am, of which my father and my cousin were a part of, was date of hire. United pilots benefited by getting the entire Pacific to fly and acquiring a senior but soon to retire workforce.

The ALPA policy was changed by the now junior pilot group concerned about merging with another more senior airline. It was extremely shortsighted. Sixteen years later, they are rethinking it. They have had a front row seat in the ALPA AAA/AWA attempt at a merger and they don't like it. Even the NWA and DAL pilots have wanted three arbitrators now after seeing the mess that ALPA created.

That's OK. I understand that many of the AAA pilots on the lower portion of the list had NO CHANCE of ever returning to the original carrier, EVER.

The list was done and walked the fine line of the ALPA Merger policy (that is quite nearly the same as the new legislation passed last winter by Senators Bond and McCaskill). No do overs, Final and Binding, and we will never surrender to the Tyranny of the Majority.

Did you know that our we are now getting financial donations from OTHER PILOTS at OTHER AIRLINES? USAPA has turned the AAA group into the PARIAHS of the Commercial Aviation Industry. I doubt if there is anything that the AAA body (even if that was to bodily remove Bradford and his merry band from office) to change that.

Oh, and IF LCC goes out of business and we need to seek employment elsewhere? Two pilots at an interview event are in the waiting room: Pilot Bradford smiles and gives his packet to the interview board and in moments is returned to the room...."We'll call, if we need your services". Pilot Chill hands his packet over to the interview board. He is greeted warmly and given a nice cup of Starbucks. After a brief interview, he is offered a job and given a tour of the facility.

PS If by some miracle we merge with UAL (even through all of this financial turmoil), get ready. UAL is painfully aware of USAPA's agenda, and will bring it to an abrupt end.