US pilot labor thread 6/21-6/27

[Edward]

With above in mind, new thread of the week.

 

[CactusFlyr]

That's not true. I am perfectly willing to let the legal process play out in its entirety. I said LEGAL process, not any internal-ALPA process since they are no longer party to anything here at US Airways. (Note ALPA's complete absence of financial assistance to the westies in their vain quest to get the Nic instituted.)

I can certainly say this for myself, and although I cannot speak for the other 3000 east pilots I am confident that at least 95% feel the same way. We are just patiently letting the LEGAL process play out and wherever it ends up, we will accept it: THE LEGAL PROCESS.

If the COURTS say Nic is the seniority list, then so be it. Game, set, match...it's over. No one here ever thought that getting rid of ALPA would be the final solution to abandoning Nic. We all thought it is the only way if MIGHT get rid of Nic. We placed our bets and now we patiently let the LEGAL process play out.
QQuote
(BTW...even though I have always been a staunch supporter of any effort to rid US Air(ways) of ALPA, Nic has no effect on me personally as I was a captain here before AWA turned its first Dash 8 prop.)

That is not the approach USAPA is taking. If that was the approach, I do not think there would be a problem. Arbitration is a part of the legal process. See definition, it's not ALPA's process.


Arbitration is a well-established and widely used means to end disputes. It is one of several kinds of Alternative Dispute Resolution, which provide parties to a controversy with a choice other than litigation. Unlike litigation, arbitration takes place out of court: the two sides select an impartial third party, known as an arbitrator; agree in advance to comply with the arbitrator's award; and then participate in a hearing at which both sides can present evidence and testimony. The arbitrator's decision is usually final, and courts rarely reexamine it.

 

[BottomFeeder]

That is not the approach USAPA is taking. If that was the approach, I do not think there would be a problem. Arbitration is a part of the legal process. See definition, it's not ALPA's process.


Arbitration is a well-established and widely used means to end disputes. It is one of several kinds of Alternative Dispute Resolution, which provide parties to a controversy with a choice other than litigation. Unlike litigation, arbitration takes place out of court: the two sides select an impartial third party, known as an arbitrator; agree in advance to comply with the arbitrator's award; and then participate in a hearing at which both sides can present evidence and testimony. The arbitrator's decision is usually final, and courts rarely reexamine it.

The AWA MEC did not do their job by informing you of the possible outcome of a USAPA win. Today you are where you are simple because of your MEC's greed. Your MEC was told by the Company, ALPA National and the East that a joint contract would never be agreed to and the NIC awards would be shelved. Your MEC did not listen and now you want to blame us for your thick head.

 

[checksix]

I don't know why USAPA even bothers to solicit west volunteers, since after the furloughs east CA's will be flooding into PHX rather than take a downgrade and F/O's will come to PHX to avoid furlough and that will result in plenty of folks to staff their little "experiment".

Luvn737, do you seriously believe this? Unlike the west pilots, the east pilots wouldn't go for this - they don't want your jobs. You don't see them on here saying ho ho ho..... or NLC's going to be pulling my gear for life. The east pilots don't want to take away your livelihood, they don't want your captain's seats.

Do we want more c/o seats? Absolutely, especially wide body, but not at your expense. You will have fences and protections high enough to guarantee this. And, you will probably have access to the east attrition and wide bodies based on DOH.

Make sense?

 

[RowUnderDCA]

The AWA MEC did not do their job by informing you of the possible outcome of a USAPA win. Today you are where you are simple because of your MEC's greed. Your MEC was told by the Company, ALPA National and the East that a joint contract would never be agreed to and the NIC awards would be shelved. Your MEC did not listen and now you want to blame us for your thick head.

from the beginning this was the east's only ace and they've played their hand perfectly. Setting up the USAPA vote as a dummy vote for a Nic contract was brilliant, IMO. I'm curious why the west didnt see that.

 

[CactusFlyr]

The AWA MEC did not do their job by informing you of the possible outcome of a USAPA win. Today you are where you are simple because of your MEC's greed. Your MEC was told by the Company, ALPA National and the East that a joint contract would never be agreed to and the NIC awards would be shelved. Your MEC did not listen and now you want to blame us for your thick head.

You guys are so front to back its not funny anymore.




"from the beginning this was the east's only ace and they've played their hand perfectly. Setting up the USAPA vote as a dummy vote for a Nic contract was brilliant, IMO. I'm curious why the west didnt see that."

The West did see this, the East just outnumbers us and that is the ONLY reason we are where we are.

 

[EastUS]

You guys are so front to back its not funny anymore.




from the beginning this was the east's only ace and they've played their hand perfectly. Setting up the USAPA vote as a dummy vote for a Nic contract was brilliant, IMO. I'm curious why the west didnt see that.

The West did see this, the East just outnumbers us and that is the ONLY reason we are where we are.

I see..so: "The west did see this"?....and yet, refused to alter their untenable position in any way? Now..there's a brilliant strategy...and is also, utter BS. Up until the election itself; the west was so absurdly arrogant as to presume an Alpa/west win, and was completely clueless as to any aspect of actual reality. Just a few examples of some of the west's clueless, pre-election perceptions:

prechilill: Apr 13 2008, 07:44 AM

"I understand emotions are high on the east after suffering years of stagnation and furloughs. Bradford epitomizes what the USAir pilot has become: a scraggly-haired, head full of gray with sunken eyes and drooping shoulders wearing three measly stripes. Who couldn't feel sorry for such a fellow? USAir has been a disaster for you guys.

Unfortunately for you, reality trumps fantasy, the law trumps emotion. On Thursday USAPA will be lucky to get half of the east pilots' vote. Time tempers all emotion, good and bad. Following Thursday, the healing may begin with your pilot group. I look forward to the day we are all marching in step as a unified group."

prechilill: Apr 14 2008, 07:46 PM "There is quite a bit you do not understand. THat is ok, after the 17th you will learn more. Your job will probably revolve around LOA93 for quite a while. If USAir picks up more widebodies, we will have the opportunity to fly them. Our section 6 negotiations will continue without the east.
Have a nice evening."

westcoastflyer: "The east pilots are pretty cocky, thinking that a USAPA win is in the bag. Yeah, it's a sure thing, just like the arbitrator's decision that couldn't possibly rule againt the DOH/LOS argument. The same ten or so guys just post endless dribble on here, trying to convince everyone that USAPA is everyone's saviour, and that they will be victorious. Get real, and don't be too surprised if less than 50% agree with you."

aquagreen73s: "You don't have the votes. Friday morning you will wake up and still have ALPA as your collective bargaining agent."

Leonidas Apr 16 2008, 07:55 PM : "This just in, over 40% of east pilots have not voted as of 5pm on 4/16. 98% of west pilots have voted with 20 still waiting for a ballot." "...Pretty sad then, so many of your ardent supporters didn't even bother to vote."..."I will be laughing tomorrow".

Shortly followed by:

Leonidas...Apr 17th: "ALPA lost by over 400 votes, the war is on."

Oh yeah...you west folks have always had everything figured out.. "The west did see this.."...Sure..if you say so, presumably only to suit your current fantasies.

Here's a thought for the "integrity" laden west folks..from your very own prechilill: "Time tempers all emotion, good and bad. Following Thursday, the healing may begin with your pilot group. I look forward to the day we are all marching in step as a unified group." I realize that such "nobility" in sentiment, and "Integrity" in union ideals, was entirely dependant upon an west election triumph though....and clearly don't actually exist, outside of the "Gimmee my Nic!"..."Integrity" BS.

 

[tazz]

I see..so: "The west did see this"?....and yet, refused to alter their untenable position in any way? Now..there's a brilliant strategy...and is also, utter BS. Up until the election itself; the west was so absurdly arrogant as to presume an Alpa/west win, and was completely clueless as to any aspect of actual reality. Just a few examples of some of the west's clueless, pre-election perceptions:

EastUS: This post clearly demonstrates the blind arrogance that the east pilots are assumed to have. Your side refused to alter its untenable position which resulted in arbitration. They again refused to budge despite the arbitrator's consistent urging on at least three occasions. He gave them one last chance shortly before rendering his very FAIR decision. The east's reaction? Call the arbitrator, whom they chose and once praised for his wisdom, experience and fairness a senile old man. Cry foul. File lawsuits. Decertify the union and start a new one with the sole purpose of negating the arbitrator's decision. The aviation community sees the east for what it is. Arrogant. Yes, the west IS clueless. They were stupid enough to play by the rules. The naive hicks out west had no clue of the level of arrogance they were dealing with. They also had no clue that any group of people could have such a lack of integrity. The east offered arbitration. The west accepted. In school I learned that establishes a contract. Those that breach contracts lack integrity. Some land in jail, some in congress..... many wind up represented by usapa.

The east's brilliant strategy is working better than that of the west's. For now. If the east actually succeeds, and I doubt they will, the west will accept that and go on with life once they have exhausted every avenue to do the right thing. The difference between these two groups is that regardless of the outcome the men and women on the west know that they exemplify integrity. The aviation community respects them.

 

[EastUS]

The difference between these two groups is that regardless of the outcome the men and women on the west know that they exemplify integrity. The aviation community respects them.

Ummm...sure....riiiight...errr...if you say so In any case: I wouldn't presume to question anything ever said by the west, since it's always proved to be entirely accurate.

West "Integrity" = Leonidas: "I want the captain seat...and most of all, I want every single east pilot to pay for it". Just a thought...

As for "The aviation community respects them." Well...I've never been one to speak for "The entire world" at any level, but..as regards the "Righteous" pursuit of Nic?..a recently retired, and well Decorated younger comrade, with 30 years USAF..noted the folloiwng = "Just who do those punks think they are!!??" That's a sentiment I've not found the least bit unique among my contemporaries, both military and civilian....so...I'm not really sure just what part of "The aviation community" you're addressing...perhaps you can enlighten us all?

 

[Piedmont1984]

The east's brilliant strategy is working better than that of the west's. For now. If the east actually succeeds, and I doubt they will, the west will accept that and go on with life once they have exhausted every avenue to do the right thing. The difference between these two groups is that regardless of the outcome the men and women on the west know that they exemplify integrity. The aviation community respects them.
[/quote]

Is this manifestation of integrity take place between mailing samples of stool, or deliberately clogging up USAPA's phone lines, or filing bogus grievances, or strutting around the terminal with USAPA=SCAB on your flight bags, or denying east jumpseat riders???

I could go on - but what's the use. You and your group exemplify anything BUT integrity.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

prechilill: Apr 13 2008, 07:44 AM

Unfortunately for you, reality trumps fantasy, the law trumps emotion. On Thursday USAPA will be lucky to get half of the east pilots' vote. Time tempers all emotion, good and bad. Following Thursday, the healing may begin with your pilot group. I look forward to the day we are all marching in step as a unified group."

Based on your assumption then, if ALPA won all would be well. So now USAPA wins and all bets are off, is that what you're insinuating? So much for integrity. But then you have no clue about that and that is what makes this especially entertaining.

 

[CactusFlyr]

I see..so: "The west did see this"?....and yet, refused to alter their untenable position in any way? Now..there's a brilliant strategy...and is also, utter BS. Up until the election itself; the west was so absurdly arrogant as to presume an Alpa/west win, and was completely clueless as to any aspect of actual reality. Just a few examples of some of the west's clueless, pre-election perceptions:

prechilill: Apr 13 2008, 07:44 AM

"I understand emotions are high on the east after suffering years of stagnation and furloughs. Bradford epitomizes what the USAir pilot has become: a scraggly-haired, head full of gray with sunken eyes and drooping shoulders wearing three measly stripes. Who couldn't feel sorry for such a fellow? USAir has been a disaster for you guys.

Unfortunately for you, reality trumps fantasy, the law trumps emotion. On Thursday USAPA will be lucky to get half of the east pilots' vote. Time tempers all emotion, good and bad. Following Thursday, the healing may begin with your pilot group. I look forward to the day we are all marching in step as a unified group."

prechilill: Apr 14 2008, 07:46 PM "There is quite a bit you do not understand. THat is ok, after the 17th you will learn more. Your job will probably revolve around LOA93 for quite a while. If USAir picks up more widebodies, we will have the opportunity to fly them. Our section 6 negotiations will continue without the east.
Have a nice evening."

westcoastflyer: "The east pilots are pretty cocky, thinking that a USAPA win is in the bag. Yeah, it's a sure thing, just like the arbitrator's decision that couldn't possibly rule againt the DOH/LOS argument. The same ten or so guys just post endless dribble on here, trying to convince everyone that USAPA is everyone's saviour, and that they will be victorious. Get real, and don't be too surprised if less than 50% agree with you."

aquagreen73s: "You don't have the votes. Friday morning you will wake up and still have ALPA as your collective bargaining agent."

Leonidas Apr 16 2008, 07:55 PM : "This just in, over 40% of east pilots have not voted as of 5pm on 4/16. 98% of west pilots have voted with 20 still waiting for a ballot." "...Pretty sad then, so many of your ardent supporters didn't even bother to vote."..."I will be laughing tomorrow".

Shortly followed by:

Leonidas...Apr 17th: "ALPA lost by over 400 votes, the war is on."

Oh yeah...you west folks have always had everything figured out.. "The west did see this.."...Sure..if you say so, presumably only to suit your current fantasies.

Here's a thought for the "integrity" laden west folks..from your very own prechilill: "Time tempers all emotion, good and bad. Following Thursday, the healing may begin with your pilot group. I look forward to the day we are all marching in step as a unified group." I realize that such "nobility" in sentiment, and "Integrity" in union ideals, was entirely dependant upon an west election triumph though....and clearly don't actually exist, outside of the "Gimmee my Nic!"..."Integrity" BS.

Let me get this right, you want negotiation after the arbitration. Back to front. Nic stands until you guys fight it in a court of law by trying to force doh. I know, sue me, you haven't submitted a doh list yet, why wait. Game on.

 

[CactusFlyr]

Based on your assumption then, if ALPA won all would be well. So now USAPA wins and all bets are off, is that what you're insinuating? So much for integrity. But then you have no clue about that and that is what makes this especially entertaining.

This is not about ALPA, this is about who gets furloughed first

 

[AAA73Pilot]

This is not about ALPA, this is about who gets furloughed first

Sure it is. Reread Preachy's original post and you will understand my reply.

 

[EastUS]

Based on your assumption then, if ALPA won all would be well. So now USAPA wins and all bets are off, is that what you're insinuating? So much for integrity. But then you have no clue about that and that is what makes this especially entertaining.

Insinuation?...Good sir...there's zero need to enter any gray zone in terms at all:

prechilill: Apr 13 2008, 07:44 AM
Unfortunately for you, reality trumps fantasy, the law trumps emotion. On Thursday USAPA will be lucky to get half of the east pilots' vote. Time tempers all emotion, good and bad. Following Thursday, the healing may begin with your pilot group. I look forward to the day we are all marching in step as a unified group."

Without the assumption of continued Alpa?...That Group Hug..."marching in step as a unified group"..and "healing" bit turned immediately to:

QUOTE (EastUS @ Apr 14 2008, 11:54 PM)
The election's almost finished. Let's talk afterwards, and see what we can collectively work out".

prechilill:"Probably nothing. We have no reason to help you or your kind in improving your quality of life. I kind of revel in the fact you work for peanuts and will continue to do so for a long time. But I admit that is just petty emotion taking over- you should know a lot about that. The compassion I had for you and your group left a while ago. There really isn't ever going to be a happy tomorrow in our future- with or without USAPA. You guys really do not understand the consequences of your own actions. Of course, you never take responsibility for your own decisions or hold your elected representatives accountable until long after the fact. THen you whine and cry later. So be it.
April 17 is just the beginning of a new, drawn out fight...."

So much for the "Integrity" and "marching in step as a unified group" BS...any such seeems highly selective in how it's applied out there. Oh well...."Unfortunately for you, reality trumps fantasy, the law trumps emotion."