US Pilots Labor Discussion

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There is a good chance that putting out something that has a chance to pass is the only option. DFR or not. Unless Doug coughs up a lot of money I don't think anything with NIC can pass. If something is put out that includes a small raise, which I think is the best we can hope for from Doug, and is not NIC( not DOH either) , and with somekind of protection for PHX, I think it has a good chance of passing from the east list and the west Captains. Not all the west Captains of course, but enough will take the raise and the guarantee that they wont have to move to the east coast.

IF something like that occurs with the majority of the group both east and west voting for it. The DFR would come. However it seems that such a DFR would have a hard time overcoming the fact that most voted for it.

It is pretty clear we are going nowhere like it stands. If there were not 1700+ retirements on the east in the next 9 years i could see a NIC getting a passing vote. It kind of looks like some middle of the road not DOH and not NIC is the only way to get anything passed.

Now before you yell about me negotiating or whatever, remember what I said earlier about where I stand on the list between widebody or narrowbody. It does not matter in the slightest which way it goes for me. If Tempes offer is enough to get me (and most of the east) to vote for a NIC, that means it is in excess of widebody rates for narrowbody equipment and F/O rates equal to current Capt rates on the east. Anything less than that and I will only vote yes on something that does not include NIC. Neither will the bottom 1/3 of the east list that is stapled in a NIC.

it is very possible that taking a DFR suit is the preferable way to go in the sense that it might be the only way to get a joint contract.

You just do not get the part that it does not matter if the DFR is what the majority wishes.

Also, you don't get a contract if it is a failure of DFR. That is the company's position in the DJ. Any negotiated contract that is a DFR is barred by injunction, and all you did was waste the years of negotiating, just to be told, try again?? When you are looking into mergers/aquisitions that is an untenable position to be in.
 
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I'd vote for nIC if it comes with 10 year fences, no furlough, and 240/hr for cap...150/hr for FO.
Great. You won't get that. Likely, it'll be a lot less but the Nic will still pass thanks to the elimination of separate ratification. Run the numbers. The grand Bradford cram-down plan will work to bring us the Nic. Oh the irony!
 
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Apparantly you didn't get the news that it is no longer 2005. Nobody on the east cares what was happening in 2005 when it comes time to vote.

I am supposedly one of the east guys that "will vote with the west" as several on here have said, but I have laid out what it will take for me to vote yes on a NIC, and I don't see that happening from Tempe. The percentages of no votes only gets higher the farther down the east list you go and the closer to 2013 it gets.

So, barring something like 180 and hour for narrowbody captains and 125 and hour for narrowbody f/o's from Tempe (never gonna happen) How do you purpose to get the majority east to vote yes on a NIC? It will take a LOT of money to get the east to accept the huge hit from NIC. Barring that, there is NO upside to NIC for 90% of the east. For that matter absent large increases, there is really no upside for the west Captains either. A yes from them negates the only protection that PHX has right now as a base.

Let me save you a lot of trouble in your assesment of the West captain's vote.

There is no way that furloughed pilots like Coello are going in front of the West f/o's much less 75% of our captains.
 
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You just do not get the part that it does not matter if the DFR is what the majority wishes.

Also, you don't get a contract if it is a failure of DFR. That is the company's position in the DJ. Any negotiated contract that is a DFR is barred by injunction, and all you did was waste the years of negotiating, just to be told, try again?? When you are looking into mergers/aquisitions that is an untenable position to be in.

Then we are right where we are now. That is why I don't see anyway to get a NIC contract ratified in the next 5 years at least. The hit that most on the east will take under NIC is worse than what we have under LOA93 and attrition. Get enough retirements done on the east and it could be passable at some point down the road.

For most on the east it really is kinda win/win. If it is enough that a NIC will pass great. But the odds favor Tempe lowballing it and ensuring a NIC wont pass. which is still fine with the east for at least the next 5 years and possible longer.

The west has zero upside unless Doug coughs up more than his mgmt. team has in history to the point of wiping out what profits we do make. The way I see it, as long as NIC is it with this mgmt. team. The west will stagnate just as they are now. Which from what I am told by a couple west buddies is fine with many of the captains there since they don't want to chance getting booted out of PHX for a few more bucks a year.
 
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Let me save you a lot of trouble in your assesment of the West captain's vote.

There is no way that furloughed pilots like Coello are going in front of the West f/o's much less 75% of our captains.

Not talking about DOH, read my posts before you reply please.

I said something other than NIC and DOH. If it protects PHX and does not put east F/O's above them, many will go for it. Like anybody out there, they will vote for themselves first. No different than how the east guys will vote on it.

If you believe anything else you are fooling yourself. Just like I would be fooling myself if i believed that a single east guy will give the bottom 1/3 of the east list a second thought in a vote. It is about how it will affect each pilot east and west given the conditions on the day of the vote. Factors on the east are, how will NIC affect me, is the pay enough to negate the NIC hit, will I be forced to commute to retain my seat, what equipment will i be able to hold as the career progresses. Which oddly enough is the same thing the west captains will be thinking with an extra emphasis on "Will i have to commute 5 hours to hold my seat." Nowhere in that is "how will it affect that nice f/o I flew with last week?"
 
I'd vote for nIC if it comes with 10 year fences, no furlough, and 240/hr for cap...150/hr for FO.

Well good for you Sparky. You get ONE vote and so do I. You can vote NO all day long. The beauty of of ratified contract is that it only takes 50% + 1 vote to get it to pass. Doug knows that. He is calculating just EXACTLY what it will take to get that. My personal bar is a contract that is equal to (at least with NO CONCESSIONS ON ANY SECTION) the current AWA contract and DAL wages for like type aircraft.

See you in the voting booth. Have a great day!
 
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Well good for you Sparky. You get ONE vote and so do I. You can vote NO all day long. The beauty of of ratified contract is that it only takes 50% + 1 vote to get it to pass. Doug knows that. He is calculating just EXACTLY what it will take to get that. My personal bar is a contract that is equal to (at least with NO CONCESSIONS ON ANY SECTION) the current AWA contract and DAL wages for like type aircraft.

See you in the voting booth. Have a great day!

Then I guess you will be voting no with me at the booth. I would be frigging astonished if Doug comes anywhere close to DAL rates. That would mean probably 180 million or so a year increase in labor costs at least. We don't make that kind of money in profits, and Doug is sure not going to be taking a paycut to help out.

Your post actually supports what I am saying. As we currently stand a contract is un ratifiable.
 
Ken,

Your assumptions match your wishes - a perfectly human trait...

What you ignore is what's really important. You assume all these new hires would rather wait years for a $160/hour job than have more money in their pocket a lot sooner. You assume that they will see Nic as "devastating" but they will still be moving up as fast as attrition (or eventual growth??) will allow - all attrition (or growth??), not just east attrition.

Ironically, but fighting to delay you hurt the very pilots you claim are with you by keeping them from enjoying the benefits of west attrition as well. You hurt them every time they fly by denying them a better contract with platitudes about "if you'll just wait 10-15-20 years everything will be great. That 15-20% you're giving up now will get you 50% more in 10-15-20 years." Don't be surprised if they look at you a little strangely when presented with that math.

In other words, you want them to want what you do - no Nic - so assume they'll go along...

Jim
 
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Apparently the NMB has "parked" our new contract discussions. Mike Cleary told the CLT pilots at last week's Domicile meeting that he expects the NMB to "park" negotiations. Furthermore, USAPA's schedule for the next four months does not indicate any new contract negotiations are scheduled between the Company, the NMB, and the union.

If true, then US Airways' pilots would not be able to seek self help, the Company could not impose new contract terms on the pilots, and the pilots would continue to operate under LOA 93/C2004 with the Preliminary Injunction in place indefinitely.

Furthermore, Judge Silver has ruled against USAPA in every motion in the DJ lawsuit, she as accelerated the case by granting US Airways'/AOL's desire for a Summary Judgment with replies due no later than February 10, 2012 and a ruling expected shortly thereafter.

To compound pilot problems a Training Department source indicated US Airways is going to cut back pilot hiring next year, which will slow attrition based pay increases.

Meanwhile, the NAC continues to be paid 95 hours per LOA 95 or 85 hours and the stipend, whichever is higher. Recently the BPR reiterated that this pay structure will stay in place for the Union's Officer, Communications Committee Chairman, Grievance Committee Chairman, and the entire Negotiating Advisory Committee.

My question is with the NAC unemployed should they be placed back on the line to help cut the union's expenses to help balance the budget or continue to receive their industry leading FPL while sitting at home?
 
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Well good for you Sparky. You get ONE vote and so do I. You can vote NO all day long. The beauty of of ratified contract is that it only takes 50% + 1 vote to get it to pass. Doug knows that. He is calculating just EXACTLY what it will take to get that. My personal bar is a contract that is equal to (at least with NO CONCESSIONS ON ANY SECTION) the current AWA contract and DAL wages for like type aircraft.

See you in the voting booth. Have a great day!
Glad you learned how the voting process works. He can be taught!
 
Not talking about DOH, read my posts before you reply please.

I said something other than NIC and DOH. If it protects PHX and does not put east F/O's above them, many will go for it. Like anybody out there, they will vote for themselves first. No different than how the east guys will vote on it.

If you believe anything else you are fooling yourself. Just like I would be fooling myself if i believed that a single east guy will give the bottom 1/3 of the east list a second thought in a vote. It is about how it will affect each pilot east and west given the conditions on the day of the vote. Factors on the east are, how will NIC affect me, is the pay enough to negate the NIC hit, will I be forced to commute to retain my seat, what equipment will i be able to hold as the career progresses. Which oddly enough is the same thing the west captains will be thinking with an extra emphasis on "Will i have to commute 5 hours to hold my seat." Nowhere in that is "how will it affect that nice f/o I flew with last week?"
And when there is the inevitable old US Air style MASS furlough...what happens to the West pilots you're so generously offering to protect by fencing them off? Let me give you a little advice...even though I'm certain it will go ignored but none the less, it's in your best interest:

The Nic. fight is over. Seham was the Charlatan liar we all out West knew he was. Your number 1 priority now should be to remove ALL NAC members, replace them with a competent mixture of East/West and get contractual language that keeps Phoenix from shrinking. 95% of the West pilots have absolutely no interest in commutting to the East Coast for any of your seats. However, if they shrink PHX 30% we all know where those senior pilots will be going. You still have plenty of opportunity to "protect" what you believe you deserve but it's can't be a DFR and it must be negotiated into the contract. Right now, you have a NAC that is wholly unable to see the forest through the trees...much like ALL of you actually. Keep PHX from shrinking drastically below current fleet mins as outlined in the TA, and you'll get mostly what you want. There is a wide open window of opportunity....which can mean only one thing....the East will squander it. :lol:
 
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Ken,

Your assumptions match your wishes - a perfectly human trait...

What you ignore is what's really important. You assume all these new hires would rather wait years for a $160/hour job than have more money in their pocket a lot sooner. You assume that they will see Nic as "devastating" but they will still be moving up as fast as attrition (or eventual growth??) will allow - all attrition (or growth??), not just east attrition.

Ironically, but fighting to delay you hurt the very pilots you claim are with you by keeping them from enjoying the benefits of west attrition as well. You hurt them every time they fly by denying them a better contract with platitudes about "if you'll just wait 10-15-20 years everything will be great. That 15-20% you're giving up now will get you 50% more in 10-15-20 years." Don't be surprised if they look at you a little strangely when presented with that math.

In other words, you want them to want what you do - no Nic - so assume they'll go along...

Jim

No Jim I am looking at what I see on the line. These guys have long ago figured out exactly how NIC will affect them, just as I have. You are looking at it from a retirees point of view with nothing to gain or lose.

Your comment is spot on about the fight is delaying and hurting the very pilots I am speaking of. The part you left out is the NIC or nothing guys are doing the same thing to the west guys that they assume are with them.

Bottom line is the east while stuck on LOA 93 has options for increased pay, we are already seeing it on the march bid. Guys on the heavies that could only hold narrowbody under NIC. Guys in the left seat that can only hold right under the NIC. And the process has not officially begun yet. The west F/O's are the only ones with a 100% gain in a NIC. The west captains are in pretty much the same boat we are. The NIC or nothing is harming them just as the DOH or nothing is on the east. The PHX capts. stand to lose a whole lot under NIC just as we do, especially when you consider what appears to be Tempes wish of shrinking PHX. (reduction below min fleet that had to be greived, LAS closures, Heavy competition in PHX from SWA, newhires on the east and not west, etc)

I may be completly wrong in how I am reading this, but flying the line on the east, and talking to west friends, I don't think so. Time will tell though.
 
Apparantly you didn't get the news that it is no longer 2005. Nobody on the east cares what was happening in 2005 when it comes time to vote.

I am supposedly one of the east guys that "will vote with the west" as several on here have said, but I have laid out what it will take for me to vote yes on a NIC, and I don't see that happening from Tempe. The percentages of no votes only gets higher the farther down the east list you go and the closer to 2013 it gets.

So, barring something like 180 and hour for narrowbody captains and 125 and hour for narrowbody f/o's from Tempe (never gonna happen) How do you purpose to get the majority east to vote yes on a NIC? It will take a LOT of money to get the east to accept the huge hit from NIC. Barring that, there is NO upside to NIC for 90% of the east. For that matter absent large increases, there is really no upside for the west Captains either. A yes from them negates the only protection that PHX has right now as a base.

You don't think enough east and west pilots can see the benefits of incremental improvements over endless stagnation waiting on the perfect pitch? You need to look at making USAPA relevant through unity and that means either replacing the leadership or replacing the union (and leadership by extension).
 
PHL Domicile Update: December 12, 2011

Philadelphia Pilots,

It is with great disappointment that I write to you today. On so many levels, last Thursday's Special BPR Meeting was a waste of time; with very little accomplished, and to top off a day that was little more than a foolish waste of your dues money, we learned that the Association did not prevail on LOA 93. Gentlemen and Ladies, I'm as disappointed as you are, and I believe you have been denied of the restoration in pay that you clearly deserve. This, in return for the continued professionalism and the superior services you provide this company. It's also worth remembering here that the Company has chosen to deny you equal pay for equal work (aka parity), even as we operate on a single certificate. It is probably also worth remembering that the former AWA MEC opposed pay parity. In any event, please take care of yourselves as we all deal with yet another devastating career setback.

Recounting the Special BPR Meeting, here are some digestible pieces that illustrate the waste:

- The meeting was called by DCA Rep Pete Dugstad with only the support of two PHX reps and Eric Jordan, who is resigning his position on 12/15/11.

- Once the meeting began, the first action was to challenge the agenda for the meeting. Rep Dugstad wanted it rearranged in specific order.

- Rep Dugstad also argued for the removal of one item completely, which was: Action regarding alleged EVP breaches of confidentiality, duties, responsibilities and fiduciary obligations to USAPA. He said we could still talk about those issues, but he was adamant that it couldn't be on the agenda. The three PHX reps, Joe Stein (DCA) and Eric Jordan (PHL) agreed, and agenda was modified by a vote of 6-5.

- This exercise took approximately one full hour out of this one day meeting. The Secretary Treasurer has estimated that a BPR meeting costs approximately $13,000 per day. So, 13,000/9 hours in session = $1445/hour. Nearly $1500 just to protect the EVP from reasonable accountability.

- Once underway with the new agenda, after hearing from AFA President Mike Flores about that union's actual efforts to negotiate a contract, we proceeded with discussing allegations made by Lee Seham, that a John or Jane Doe sent him unflattering email.

- We received a preliminary briefing from the Ad Hoc Committee appointed to investigate. Chairman Dave Koseruba informed us that the ominous-looking page that shows a particular IP Address with times and dates, and a name associated with it, proves only one thing: that this IP address was assigned to a specific router at the time. The evidence does not show that any emails were sent from it, never mind the alleged emails in question. Furthermore, the preliminary finding of the Committee is that "None of the information presented to the Ad Hoc Committee offers ANY definitive evidence of wrong doing".

- We then received a legal briefing from attorneys Brian O'Dwyer and Pat Szymanski which informed us that even if someone within or associated with USAPA sent emails posing as someone else, or that if they were unflattering or slanderous that "USAPA cannot be held liable for the email messages because there is no indication that its members ratified, or even had any knowledge of, the alleged tortious conduct."

So, after many hours of discussion, it's concluded that the evidence is inconclusive, and that even if it were to eventually prove conclusive, USAPA cannot be held liable. And I'm here to tell you that we DID NOT need a $13,000 BPR meeting to figure this out. This is a case of Seham successfully motivating certain Board members into attempting to distract USAPA from the very legitimate audit of his legal bills. Seham has, by the way, withdrawn the lawsuit. It is interesting to note that discovery is a two way street. Withdrawal of his suit precludes discovery working in his direction. If the suit was as meritorious as some claim, why withdraw?

We then received legal opinions from O'Dwyer and Szymanski about Executive Vice President Gary Hummel's involvement in this whole affair, which amounted to an oral accounting of what had already been distributed to the BPR. Here are some of EVP Hummel's numerous violations according to the legal analysis:

"Although, some of what is in EVP Hummel's email messages may be in the public domain, much is not. EVP Hummel revealed confidential and privileged information. And even with respect to what is in the public domain, EVP Hummel made public statements (as an Officer whose statements can be used against USAPA) that are damaging to USAPA's interests and discussed litigation strategy outside the attorney-client privilege and which therefore could be used against USAPA in a court of law. These actions violated his fiduciary duty to the organization and the explicit provisions of the USAPA Constitution and UOM."

Continuing,

Without going into detail which would exacerbate the breach already perpetrated by EVP Hummel, it is absolutely clear that he disclosed "sensitive information" to the public in his email messages.

And more from the legal analysis,

There really couldn't be a more obvious breach of an officer's fiduciary duty than to assist an adverse party (Seham) in stonewalling a legitimate audit directed by the BPR, and to assist that same adverse party (again, Mr. Seham) with his purported claims against the very organization the officer is sworn to protect. No one would suggest that a member of Congress or an American diplomat could lawfully disclose confidential information or otherwise assist Al-Qaeda. No one should suggest that EVP Hummel acted properly in cooperating with Lee Seham in his efforts to avoid a legitimate audit of his bills, or to support his potential claims against USAPA.

Indeed, the resolution adopted by the BPR "directs" the "officers, employees and agents" of USAPA "to cooperate in the conduct of the audit" and further that "no officer, employee or agent of USAPA shall interfere with the conduct of the audit."

After establishing for the record that EVP Hummel has placed the Association at risk - the very thing he has accused others of doing - and establishing that he was working in violation of the resolution that authorized the audit of all our legal expenses, working in violation of his fiduciary to the Association, violating the signed confidentiality agreement that all USAPA Officers and Board Members have signed, and acting outside of his duties and responsibilities specified in the USAPA Constitution and Bylaws and the Union Operating Manual, the BPR took the following action: Nothing.

Possible courses of action to prevent EVP Hummel from continuing to act in this detrimental manner failed by a vote of 6-5. It appeared to me that protecting Hummel was the mission of Reps from PHX, and DCA, and Eric Jordan's DDR Jamie Weidner. (In fairness, DDR Weidner said that when Eric left the meeting in the early afternoon he was instructed to vote no for any action against EVP Hummel. For the record, Jordan had not heard all the discussion when he left the building.) And that's about it.

Fellow pilots, we hear from the vast majority of you that you want an end to the infighting. We've identified a focal point of that infighting: EVP Hummel. He made no effort to communicate any of his (read: Lee Seham's) concerns to his fellow Officers. Instead, he distributed them along with confidential information to "anyone who asked for them." When asked if he contacted Lee Seham or if Seham had contacted him, he admitted that he had. He claimed (with a straight face) that he only became aware of the Seham lawsuit against Jane Doe when he and his wife found it by chance on the Internet. Please think about this: Hummel told the BPR, with pilots in the audience, that he and his wife regularly cruise the internet looking for John and Jane Doe lawsuits on a particular website, and that's the only way he happened to know that Seham had filed suit. Armed with this important information, he somehow interpreted it as his responsibility, and the logical course of action, to break out with six emails to serve as his "report" for a BPR conference call.

We came to Charlotte because it's our duty to look after your interests and protect the Association. When presented with irrefutable evidence of wrongdoing and violation, five of us made our best effort to correct the problem and bring some semblance of accountability. I am reporting to you that the representatives from DCA, PHX, and Jordan/Weidner blocked those efforts and made sure that EVP Hummel is still not formally notified that he must cease acts that are contrary to the good of the Association and, in my opinion, performed only for political gain.

If you want to stop the infighting, you need this information to understand who to ask to stop.

Fraternally and with measured disgust,

Chairman Steve "Spike" Szpyrka
[email protected]
704-408-6814

USA320Pilot comments: I find it interesting that two of the three PHL Reps did not sign this update, Eric Jordan's resignation is effective Thursday, and the Friends of Cleary (FOCs) were out voted 6-5. It appears the BPR's new order has the DCA, PHX, and one PHL Rep aligned and the three CLT and two PHL Reps aligned. The two PHL/three CLT Reps are politically aligned with Cleary and Mowery, thus, Cleary has lost control of the BPR.
 
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