US Pilots Labor Discussion

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We may be voting on the NIC sooner than we think, at least indirectly.

The C&BL's stipulate that a candidate for president must be a MIGS. If the west fields a candidate who campaigns on the promise that once elected, he will work to remove DOH language and replace it with the NIC, that candidate will have at least 1000+ PHX votes and a few hundred east votes. How many votes did Cleary get last time? Is the east more or less unified than it was three years ago?

What we get from the Cleary/Mowrey team is continuity, experience, a knowledge of the issues and players, and a dogged willingness to fight anybody and everybody. We also get controversy, scandal, disunity, complete alienation vis a vis management and the west, a record of defeat,(with the reprieve from the 9th being the sole exception) - and a dogged willingness to fight anybody and everybody.

I suppose Hummel could claim the same assets above, while distancing himself from the liabilities. We'll see.

But for me to consider voting for Cleary, he needs to articulate a clear exit strategy with regard to the SLI dispute. At some point the appeals need to end and the attorneys need to go home. If Silver issues an unambiguous summary judgement against USAPA by ruling that the NIC is binding, that would be a good time to fold our tents.

Cleary also needs to begin repairing the breach between east and west. A good place to start is REAL west participation on the NAC, Grievance and Merger Committees - and to begin focusing on our REAL adversaries.
 
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Then we are right where we are now. That is why I don't see anyway to get a NIC contract ratified in the next 5 years at least. The hit that most on the east will take under NIC is worse than what we have under LOA93 and attrition. Get enough retirements done on the east and it could be passable at some point down the road.

For most on the east it really is kinda win/win. If it is enough that a NIC will pass great. But the odds favor Tempe lowballing it and ensuring a NIC wont pass. which is still fine with the east for at least the next 5 years and possible longer.

The west has zero upside unless Doug coughs up more than his mgmt. team has in history to the point of wiping out what profits we do make. The way I see it, as long as NIC is it with this mgmt. team. The west will stagnate just as they are now. Which from what I am told by a couple west buddies is fine with many of the captains there since they don't want to chance getting booted out of PHX for a few more bucks a year.

If I am reading them correctly, your post are contradictory.

Let me just say that the only thing usapa has offered the West in this whole debacle is C&Rs, and I am going to give usapa the benefit of the doubt and say they thought they were protecting PHX. (I personally believe they were written as published knowing there is nothing stopping east pilots from getting into PHX)

The West already has PHX protection, and not only that we have a fleet min PHX protection.

The point is, you keep looking at it as though the West wants a contract. I posted months ago that the eye opener for the east is when you lose the LOA93 grievence and decide that enough is enough lets get a contract, and the West is going to tell you to pound sand. Well, it is here, pound sand. You can have your seperate ops attrition. It is damn near next to meaningless to 65% of the West pilot group. Frankly, if the West still had the 144 aircraft we came to the merger with, it would be meaningless to 100% of the West pilots.

The next phase is when Silver tells the company they cannot have immunity from suit, and the company starts to further pressure the West pilots. Then the company and usapa are going to learn a lesson about collusion and why the 9th also mentioned this,

",Although we do not hold that a DFR claim based on a
union’s promotion of a policy is never ripe until that policy
is effectuated,
 
And when there is the inevitable old US Air style MASS furlough...what happens to the West pilots you're so generously offering to protect by fencing them off? Let me give you a little advice...even though I'm certain it will go ignored but none the less, it's in your best interest:

The Nic. fight is over. Seham was the Charlatan liar we all out West knew he was. Your number 1 priority now should be to remove ALL NAC members, replace them with a competent mixture of East/West and get contractual language that keeps Phoenix from shrinking. 95% of the West pilots have absolutely no interest in commutting to the East Coast for any of your seats. However, if they shrink PHX 30% we all know where those senior pilots will be going. You still have plenty of opportunity to "protect" what you believe you deserve but it's can't be a DFR and it must be negotiated into the contract. Right now, you have a NAC that is wholly unable to see the forest through the trees...much like ALL of you actually. Keep PHX from shrinking drastically below current fleet mins as outlined in the TA, and you'll get mostly what you want. There is a wide open window of opportunity....which can mean only one thing....the East will squander it. :lol:

Ok. Keep PHX from shrinking, I am all for that.

What happens when the very senior PSA crowd bids to PHX?

How are you going to get the bottom 1/3 of the east pilots to vote yes on the proposal you present? Yes means they will be voting themselves into the "MASS furlough" as you termed it. Right now they are no more in danger of that than PHX is with the transition agreement. Under NIC they will bear 100% of such a furlough.

Your ideas will work, if both sides get similar protections. Base protections...but for all bases not just the west base. In case you haven't noticed, the east lost more bases than the west did in this mess.
 
If I am reading them correctly, your post are contradictory.

Let me just say that the only thing usapa has offered the West in this whole debacle is C&Rs, and I am going to give usapa the benefit of the doubt and say they thought they were protecting PHX. (I personally believe they were written as published knowing there is nothing stopping east pilots from getting into PHX)

The West already has PHX protection, and not only that we have a fleet min PHX protection.

The point is, you keep looking at it as though the West wants a contract. I posted months ago that the eye opener for the east is when you lose the LOA93 grievence and decide that enough is enough lets get a contract, and the West is going to tell you to pound sand. Well, it is here, pound sand. You can have your seperate ops attrition. It is damn near next to meaningless to 65% of the West pilot group. Frankly, if the West still had the 144 aircraft we came to the merger with, it would be meaningless to 100% of the West pilots.

The next phase is when Silver tells the company they cannot have immunity from suit, and the company starts to further pressure the West pilots. Then the company and usapa are going to learn a lesson about collusion and why the 9th also mentioned this,

",Although we do not hold that a DFR claim based on a
union’s promotion of a policy is never ripe until that policy
is effectuated,


No I am trying to point out that the east majority does not appear to care that they are on LOA 93 ( I don't) The NIC dowside is more than the LOA 93 downside. I think the ONLY pilots on this property that are desperate for a joint contract is the junior west, and then only if it is a NIC. None of us really has any upside to NIC with this current mgmt east or west except the west F/O's

If we were talking about the difference between what we make and what industry standard is that would be different. You and I both know Tempe will never go that high.
 
No I am trying to point out that the east majority does not appear to care that they are on LOA 93 ( I don't) The NIC dowside is more than the LOA 93 downside. I think the ONLY pilots on this property that are desperate for a joint contract is the junior west, and then only if it is a NIC. None of us really has any upside to NIC with this current mgmt east or west except the west F/O's

News flash boo boo - THE WEST IS NOT DESPERATE FOR A CONTRACT!

Status quo is working fine for us out here. But if there is to be a contract, we are going to hold you to your agreement of final and binding which means an untouched, unadulterated award.

You guys are the desperate ones. You want off LOA 93 but you make demands asking for fences and compromise.

If we were desperate for a new contract, we would have given in to your demands. As has been the case, its quite obvious the opposite is true.

We're content.

You're not.
 
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News flash boo boo - THE WEST IS NOT DESPERATE FOR A CONTRACT!

Status quo is working fine for us out here. But if there is to be a contract, we are going to hold you to your agreement of final and binding which means an untouched, unadulterated award.

You guys are the desperate ones. You want off LOA 93 but you make demands asking for fences and compromise.

If we were desperate for a new contract, we would have given in to your demands. As has been the case, its quite obvious the opposite is true.

We're content.

You're not.

Ah good. I am fine right where we are. Makes the most sense really. As long as we remain seperate ops the transition agreement protects both sides. Tempe cannot really screw either of us too bad.


Glad to see at least a few of us can agree on something! :)
 
Hold the phone.

I want value for my dues. If USAPA is going to abdicate their responsibility to represent all the pilots, (including negotiating a joint contract) then they have no right to confiscate dues money.

We would be better off with no union if the union is choosing to do nothing and are too impotent to represent the pilots in any other way.
 
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Ah good. I am fine right where we are. Makes the most sense really. As long as we remain seperate ops the transition agreement protects both sides. Tempe cannot really screw either of us too bad.


Glad to see at least a few of us can agree on something! :)
The only question for you is just how many of your fellow east pilots agree with you. I'm sure of my numbers, are you?

Reread some of the prior posts here. Your numbers aren't has strong as you think. LOA 93 is now, without question, your future. That's a pretty heavy reality for many easties.
 
Ah good. I am fine right where we are. Makes the most sense really. As long as we remain seperate ops the transition agreement protects both sides. Tempe cannot really screw either of us too bad.

Really? What makes you think there is any protection from the Transition Agreement being torn up or invalidated by a court for failure to negotiate in good faith?

USAPA can't represent you, nor protect you from whatever Tempe would like to do. Why can't you understand that?

The injunction didn't neuter USAPA, it took all it's teeth and claws from it. Neutering would only change it's behavior. What the injunction did was eliminate it as a threat entirely.
 
Hold the phone.

I want value for my dues. If USAPA is going to abdicate their responsibility to represent all the pilots, (including negotiating a joint contract) then they have no right to confiscate dues money.

We would be better off with no union if the union is choosing to do nothing and are too impotent to represent the pilots in any other way.

Well according to move2clt you guys don't want a joint contract anymore than we do. So whats the problem?

They will still be there for greivance issues and such just like they would absent any merger. No DOH pressure for the west, No NIC pressure for the east. Them doing nothing for a while to let attrition take care of this seniority mess seems like the perfect solution. Transition agreement still in place to protect east and west. In about 9 years enough folks will be gone that tidying up this mess will be a snap.

Doing nothing seems to solve all the issues on the east and west for a few years at least. And it would give us the oppertunity to see just how bad Dougie might need us cooperative in the event of a merger. Sounds like it might be the best plan we have to get a good contract out of this one day.
 
Hold the phone.

I want value for my dues. If USAPA is going to abdicate their responsibility to represent all the pilots, (including negotiating a joint contract) then they have no right to confiscate dues money.

We would be better off with no union if the union is choosing to do nothing and are too impotent to represent the pilots in any other way.
I'm in on that one!

The west just won their 5% override issue without any interference from USAPA. Zero union help - just our own pilots working with the company.

I've got better things to do with the money that's being sent to Cleary and Parella, who stay at home to do union business and get Christmas off.

You easties did know that, didn't you? FPL to work from home and holidays off. Great gig. I especially liked the part when Tracey announced the LOA 93 loss from the comfort of her home office.
 
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Well according to move2clt you guys don't want a joint contract anymore than we do. So whats the problem?

They will still be there for greivance issues and such just like they would absent any merger. No DOH pressure for the west, No NIC pressure for the east. Them doing nothing for a while to let attrition take care of this seniority mess seems like the perfect solution. Transition agreement still in place to protect east and west. In about 9 years enough folks will be gone that tidying up this mess will be a snap.

Doing nothing seems to solve all the issues on the east and west for a few years at least. And it would give us the oppertunity to see just how bad Dougie might need us cooperative in the event of a merger. Sounds like it might be the best plan we have to get a good contract out of this one day.
No boo boo, that's not what I said.

I want a new contract but if it doesn't have the Nic then I'm fine with status quo.

And we have ZERO DOH pressure out here. When Cleary came looking for compromise, that pretty much proved it.

And the next merger, if there is one, will happen with or without our cooperation. USAPA has no power to influence anything and the injunction makes that a reality.

Quit pretending like you mean something to Doug - you don't. Thanks to USAPA, you're now no more than a worn down speed bump.
 
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The only question for you is just how many of your fellow east pilots agree with you. I'm sure of my numbers, are you?

Reread some of the prior posts here. Your numbers aren't has strong as you think. LOA 93 is now, without question, your future. That's a pretty heavy reality for many easties.

Come over and ride jumpseat for a few days on east metal. Discuss NIC with them and get back to me on your findings.

I have no illusions about how opposed to DOH the west is. You don't seem to understand that NIC is equally opposed on the east.

I am perfectly fine with what we have right now for the next several years at least. You might find a few easties that dissagree with me, but at the same time I know a few westies that disagree with you. Not everyone on the west gets a lottery win out of NIC, just as not every east guy gets something out of attrition. The simple fact that we are 6 years into this with no end in sight proves the above.

The fact that you are really really trying to convince me that I am reading my fellow east pilots wrong as a whole leads me to believe that you didnt really mean that part about you not minding seperate ops. I am guessing you fall into the "junior west" I spoke of?
 
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No Jim I am looking at what I see on the line. These guys have long ago figured out exactly how NIC will affect them, just as I have. You are looking at it from a retirees point of view with nothing to gain or lose.

The nice thing about having nothing to win or lose is the ability to look at the situation logically instead of emotionally. Just look at what emotions have gotten you so far...

The new hires are going to be furlough fodder Nic or not. They're junior to all the pilots on the Nic list and any real protection of PHX jobs (or separate ops) makes them the last hired so naturally first to hit the street. The previous situation of recalling east furloughees while furloughing new hires won't happen again, or if it does it'll be furloughing new hires to recall furloughed west pilots.

Yes, they'll get the occasional smaller raise from bidding higher paying equipment, etc, but that would be instead of a quicker raise that affects all those occasional raises also. With separate ops eliminating west attrition availability (filled by newer hires making more money when off probation) the new hires will always be playing catch up to what could have been. As I said, Nic or not the east new hires will move up with attrition. The only question is whether that attrition includes that on the west side with Nic and an increase in pay rates for the various jobs or just east attrition with no increase in pay rates for the various jobs. Looked at logically, without emotion, the choice is pretty clear...

Besides, anyone on either side that starts a statement with "In 10 years..." is selling a load of BS since nothing is guaranteed for that long in this industry.

Jim
 
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