US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Very deep Callaway, I guess I'm supposed to feel chastised, ashamed...not sure what you're going for.

It's also honorable to stand up for yourself when you've been wronged. Agreeing to the process is one thing, when the result is so egregious and wrong as this Nic abomination was I think it's less honorable to lay down and say "oh well I guess that's the way the cookie crumbles".

These men have every right to stand up and say that this arbitration was wrong and fight it's implmentation. That, my friend, is the honorable thing for them and their families to do.
Being blindfolded and asked to accept what's behind number door #2 regardless of the outcome, then to find out it's a execution squad is kind of how ALPA merger policy/Nic hit the East pilots and their careers.

The question I always have is the west seems so anxious to have a contract put out...any contract as long as it has Nic, not a mention of scope, work rules, heck you don't even seem to care about industry standard pay, just that it has to have Nic. The west is just salivating over it, with good reason I suppose. The fact that "Nic at any cost" is kind of the west's motto seems to be telling. It was a windfall and you boys are DESPERATE to cash in.

The fact that the east and their family's are willing to sit with loa93, says something as well. We are strong in OUR resolve and we will honorably stand up for what is right..in this case it is certainly not the Nic award. ALPA merger policy failed. You want to start with calling out dishonorable individuals start with "Pass the buck" ALPA.

But to call My husband and his fellow co-workers dishonorable for standing up for what is right, just shows that you're the one trying to steal from someone.

There is a reason why we have judges, juries, and neutral arbitrators to decide conflicts between parties. It is because both sides think they are right. If they didn't want to stand up for what they think is right, they would just settle the matter and avoid having third parties decide the solution.

In this case, it was quite clear that East pilots felt date of hire was fair and the West pilots wanted a ratioed list, but one that was more slanted to them. There was no meeting of the minds, therefore a third party was called in to decide the dispute. The process was fair and equitable, and therefore the outcome was fair and equitable. Neither side got their way. Of course you don't think it's fair, that's why you had the dispute. The arbitration was deemed final and binding BEFORE the process even started. It was final and binding because everyone understands that both sides will most likely not be happy with the outcome. ALPA Merger Policy explicitly states that "fairness is in the eye of the beholder." Telling us that you don't consider the outcome fair is like saying Tuesday is the day after Monday.

It was honorable to fight hard in the arbitration. It was not honorable to renege on your agreement to hold the outcome final and binding. Period. As we well know, the East pilots have a lot of airline experience and they have been through many mergers and seen countless others. They knew full well what arbitration was about and what ALPA Merger Policy means. Where was your outrage when the Trump Shuttle was integrated by status and category and not date of hire? What happened to the gold standard in that case? Oh, I forgot, the East majority liked that outcome so they didn't complain then.

In this case, standing up for your rights means trying to take by force what you couldn't win in a fair and equitable setting. Of course the West pilots are upset. The actions of the East are costing all the pilots a lot money, not just the East pilots. Plus, they are trying to avoid being stapled to the bottom of the East list (or virtually stapled). Gee, I wonder why they are upset?

Every arbitration in the last 20 years has been through some type of ratio. US Air/Trump Shuttle, Atlas/Polar, US Air/AWA, and DL/NW. Care to take a bet on how the CO/UA list integration will go? Every neutral third party recognizes that status and category determine pilot compensation much more than longevity. Look at your own pay scale and tell me what you see. Longevity barely makes a dent in the total compensation. Every neutral third party also recognizes that airlines will change, they don't know how, they just know it will change. Imagine LCC decides to close PHX and CLT and open a mega hub in Kansas City. Under a date of hire list, almost all the captains will be East pilots and almost all the first officers will be West pilots. Under the Nicolau award the jobs will be apportioned very much the same way they are now. That is why lists are ratioed.

You weren't blindfolded. You were a highly experienced group that went into the process with no misconceptions on how it worked. You didn't get your way so now you are attempting to take it by force. Every outside party recognizes this and that is why you will continue to fail in your efforts. In the interim, you are destroying what is left of your careers. Honor? That makes me laugh. If you are going down this path, at least be honest and say "I am going to take whatever I can, so go take a hike." Don't give a lecture about honor.

By the way, I am not a West pilot, so don't bother telling me about my lottery ticket.
 
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ps - you guys need to figure out some way to type in a higher pitch if you want to be a believable "wife".


OH Jim such repartee, you have been a real joy to read on the board the last few years.

Some of us wives don't do high pitch. Interesting that you choose to question us. Here let me put up my argument...No really I am an east pilot's wife please believe me...there that work? No? Honest I am, really...
But to be perfectly honest I could care less if you believe me or LSS or any other wife/spouse on here.

I've read the snide little quips by some west posters of how the east wives want a contract...maybe so we can go on a cruise or go on a shopping extravaganza. I just wanted to let them know that this is one wife that is willing to stand right next to her husband in support of him and his co-workers.

Of the other east spouses I know..every one of them is anti-nic, some of them vehemently so.

Move on to your next argument...I think we've covered this one. East spouses do not support a Nic contract.
 
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As for that wordy post Oscar..

That's why the two sides are in court now. (My mistake Addington got tossed by the 9th...well anyway once the company shenanigans are done with...then I guess it'll end up in court again.)

The "final and binding" crowd can yell, scream, spit...just like the "DOH" side.

Nothing will be solved until this runs its course.

But yeah I totally get how any airline that started up in the 80's with guys who did have 3-4months with the company should just seamlessly slide in to...(Ready for this? it's kind of dirty) "Super Seniority"
That's just my opinion. Hey Nic thought the west deserved it...he had to be right...but that's why it in the court system.
 
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As for that wordy post Oscar..

That's why the two sides are in court now. (My mistake Addington got tossed by the 9th...well anyway once the company shenanigans are done with...then I guess it'll end up in court again.)

The "final and binding" crowd can yell, scream, spit...just like the "DOH" side.

Nothing will be solved until this runs its course.

But yeah I totally get how any airline that started up in the 80's with guys who did have 3-4months with the company should just seamlessly slide in to...(Ready for this? it's kind of dirty) "Super Seniority"
That's just my opinion. Hey Nic thought the west deserved it...he had to be right...but that's why it in the court system.

Sorry, it's in the court system because one side could not keep their end of the bargain and lacks the integrity to even admit it. I fly a 767 and make thousands more than your highest paid pilot because one side is too ignorant to even see how badly they are screwing themselves. Next year (ready for this? it's kind of dirty), Delta copilots will make more than most of your Captains for the exact same reason. How's that for straight to the point?
 
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OH Jim such repartee, you have been a real joy to read on the board the last few years.

Glad to bring you some joy.

Interesting that you choose to question us.

Interesting that you consider yourself a "wife" instead of a wife. I know that my better half would never dream of saying that she was my "wife" nor would I ever consider it. To quote one of the standard uses of quotation marks, "A single word or a short phrase may be enclosed in quotation marks to indicate ironic use."

The fact is that the East pilots signed on to binding arbitration, certainly expecting to get what they wanted, only to be upset with the outcome. So they're attempting to renege on the agreement to abide by binding arbitratiion. Would that behavior be acceptable to you if Nic had awarded DOH and it was the West doing the reneging? Of if your child promised to do ther homework before playing video games but didn't do the homework because "it wasn't any fun"?

Jim
 
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The point was, which you obviously missed, is there are far more spouses that support their pilot's position than you can imagine, unless you can possibly think the majority do!

That's right... Leonidas... proponent of marital harmony... all else has failed to persuade the East pilots... so let's create a riff between spouses... now that is a class act! NOT!

Uhhhh......I count 2 on this board (our recently prolific Missfit & one post Rosey). The rest of the commentary regarding the wives opinions state "My wife thinks..", "My wife says..". Some of the responses seem more like someone making an alternate identity and putting on a dress (IMHO).

For every Missfit & Rosey, I'll bet there is one "Ms. ThingsThatMakeYouGoHmmmmm" out there. These are the pilots and pilot families that will take the time to read the literature (without emotion), and actually try to understand all of the events that have led us here. They will look at the fact that the NAC has 6-7 sections of a 30(?) section contract done in 30+ months. The window for ANY contract is bound to close SOONER rather than LATER.
 
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Jim...I was unaware that I added quotation marks around the word wife anywhere other than when I quoted your reply that had the said quotation marks.


As for the money...it's not always about the money...which I would think would be obvious by this point. Actually, I think the Leonidas pamphlet highlights that fact quite well.

I'm sorry our spouses didn't fall all over themselves to get a substandard contract with the Nic in it out for a vote that surely would have passed. Really it is a shame, but keep sending money so you can upgrade your badge backers seeing a lot of silver ones, when I'm out and about disappointed you boys aren't throwing more money at the cause.
 
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Ames,

This wife read it. My husband on the other hand has no interest in even opening it. The address it came to is a PO Box only listed with the company.

As for my opinion of it...very nicely put together, color scheme, everything really well done, pat on the back for Leonidas but if my husband votes for a "Nic" contract I'll be the first to smack him upside the head. He's given so much for this company I see no reason he should give up his seniority for you.

As for this "East" wife...the Kirby proposal is a complete joke, the company is in no hurry to get a contract done and any contract that contains Nic is a non starter.

Missfit, I'm glad you took the time to read the brochure. Now take the time to read the Nicolau decision. If your husband was not furloughed when the acquisition took place he would be in the same relative position that he was prior to it. He would not be giving me or anyone else his seniority. If he was furloughed then he is at the bottom for a reason.

I agree that the Kirby proposal is a complete joke and that the company is in no hurry for a contract unless it directly benefits them. The court system will have the final say on the Nicolau list. Should they rule that way there will be a contract with the Nicolau list, like it or not. Ratification is not a constitutional right, only an agreement with the company and a union. Therefore a contract could be forthcoming, with or without ratification.

By the way, my wife would smack me up side the head if I refused to do something I had committed to do, such as honor a final and binding agreement...
 
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just thumbed thru the AOL propaganda... First, should take me off your list... or should I show up at your front door and start babbling about what i think?

bottom line, this will be solved in court. Why try to swing our senior guys to support your position ?

I commend our senior guys for standing with all the east guys on this.

NIC is a screw job plain and simple, bottom line.... No fancy paper brouchure changes that.

In fact that brouchure looks a lot like the ALPA bs that was sent out..
 
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It is my opinion that the Nic is indeed, as a matter of fact, and by any definition thereof, fair.

On a second topic. What is the big deal where AOL obtained addresses? Even if the company supplied the info (which I very much doubt), no animals were harmed in the making of this film, so that is pretty much THE END.

Third, the West is indeed most anxious to get a new contract. Our contract became amendable years ago, we have not had a raise in a long time, the seperate ops is causing violations of our contract daily, we are still waiting on the payout of the min block hour grievence we won months ago. The only way to a new contract is one that includes the Nic, regardless of what Seham thinks. usapa is appearantly determined to force seperate ops for the foreseeable future, and it is time to end the DOH snipe hunt. Simple as that. The great windfall that I recieve from the Nic is that I get to keep my relative position and status for the rest of my career at LCC. However, long or short that is, remains to be seen. I would like to get paid more, even a number approaching industry standard, instead of the low pay usapa has us all locked into.

Fourth, you are all reading more into ALPA's brief than is there. Just like the 9th, all they are saying is "not ripe".

Fifth, so what if Russ married Elise, other than that is one of many hundreds of West pilots who can easily afford to keep supporting AOL financially.

Sixth, this is not an ultimatum, it is the simple facts of the matter, the Nicolau award, unmodified, to its terms, or get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe DFR".



*********************************************8
Hey Nic 4 US.

Leave me your adress here and I'll send you a letter a day telling you where you can stick the NIC
 
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Hey PI BRAT!!!

You asked "what Hissy fit??!!!"

How's this? They received some mail they didn't specifically ask for....something that happens several times every single day and they have a MELT DOWN.

Now juxtapose a mailing next to what the East has foisted upon west pilots and THEIR wives. The list of abuse and illegalities is far to long to list.


"MAKE THEM STOP!!!!" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Give me a freakin' break. Your husband is lucky to have a JOB at all. There is no disputing that fact.

I'm sorry, "melt down" "Hissy fit"? Your correct junk mail arrives daily and ends up in the round file, just like this mailing. Are you saying that West families have received mailings from anyone other than the legally elected CBA? If so then the same standard applies. Give us all a break because all of you "East and West" are lucky to have a job.
 
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Let me tell you about honoring your commitments. Roofer comes to my house
and says I can fix your roof for $1000 (this is a true story). Says it will take him
all day. I say OK go for it. He goes up on the roof from 9-11. Takes a lunch break.
Comes back at 1:00 stays an hour. Puts his hand out at 2:00 and says all done, pay me.
I say not so fast. You told me it was an all day job and that it what I based my decison on
as to the fairness of your proposal. He says not my fault. He did not get the $1000
but what he got was "fair"

NICDOA
NPJB

Did he complete the job in a satisfactory manner? If he did, you are absolutely dishonorable and he is a moron for not kicking your butt. I'm willing to bet you'll find yourself in small claims court. You truly are an eastie... (true story)?
 
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Did he complete the job in a satisfactory manner? If he did, you are absolutely dishonorable and he is a moron for not kicking your butt. I'm willing to bet you'll find yourself in small claims court. You truly are an eastie... (true story)?

I thought the SAME thing. You AGREE on a price. The price is for the job, not by the hour. The guys delivers the work in a satisfactory manner...what does the Eastie do?

Reneges, comes up with some stupid justification for it, and steals from the guy. How shocking....how uncharacteristic!!! :lol: :lol:

This is the mentality West pilots have to deal with, this guy, in his own head, thought that this little story was going to illuminate some kind of quality of character when in fact it proves him to be lying, thieving, and untrustworthy. These people are nuts. LOA 93 couldn't have happened to a more deserving bunch. I hope it lasts forever....that's what they insist upon anyway. F.O.s at most Legacy airlines now make more that East captains and the gap is only growing. Good.
 
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