Why no contract from the Association?

Discussion in 'American Airlines' started by Bob Owens, May 18, 2017.


  1. 1AA

    1AA Veteran

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    Another true statement in writing from the TWU, IAM and the Association.

    You will vote on the association representation.

    How did that work out?

    Any statement in writing from the TWU, IAM and the association has no credibility. That has been factually proven.
    Trust nothing they say. We need to rid ourselves from this disgraceful organization that they refer to as a union.
     
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  2. WeAAsles

    WeAAsles Veteran

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    Actually it was only the TWU who said (Jim Little) that we would get to vote on the Association. Never read the IAM say that or an official Association document either.
     
  3. anotherdelay

    anotherdelay Member

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    Yes Legally what could be done? The rollover of our pension into the IAM or including us in the IAM Pension? As far as the Rollover I was answering what somebody else posted, he seemed to think it could not be done, I said I think it could be done.


    NOW THEREFORE, TWU and IAM agree to propose a defined benefit pension with the IAMNPF in negotiations with the New American Airlines for single , combined Collective Bargaining Agreements covering Mechanic and Related, Fleet Service and Stores employees in order to provide a defined benefit benefit pension for those employees at American Airlines whose pensions were frozen in American's bankruptcy and to continue the participation of those employees at US Airways who currently have defined benefit pensions in the IAMNPF.

    Hey Bob, one thing I know about some of the fleet guys, is because of some of the things you said 15+ years ago...because you were backed into a corner, and strong emotions they won't let go because they were being backed into a corner too.... Yeah the company really had it out for labor issues mostly due to flat rasm's, the terrible twa merger at the time, 911...then the Union, Little maybe a nice guy, but at the time he allowed to much division.

    That said, present issues are

    1. You guys need to go after Rosen and ask what Due Diligence he did on the iampf.
    2. You guys need to go after Rosen and ask what Due Diligence he did on the Bond McKasgill language and this Association.
    3. You guys need to go after Trunka, and find out what involvement he had in this Association, due to issue number 2.

    Since you are not an officer anymore, and you do have a lot of respect, with everyone, even the guys attacking you, that's why the dredge up pretty quickly that link. Talk to Amfa, and have them provide with Lawyers they trust and costs involved, to go after these guys. This is not to start a card drive. This is to start a fire under TWU, and finish off what Lombardo, didn't do. There is a lot about this Association that was underhanded, and Rosen is still on board and culpable. TWU just can't continue to lie down, and not fight for us. IAM is having the TWU for lunch, while I like the Unity picture, but with Rosen still at the TWU, I smell a rat.

    You guys lose your license signing off on work not done probably. Lawyers do too, and agreements become null and void, especially when they go against the interest of their members.

     
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  4. Birdman

    Birdman Veteran

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    I'm still baffled as to why at least the LAA guys didn't storm the bastille over this injustice. In regard to the AA pension I'm not sure why we even care what the TWU/IAM has said or will say. AA has 100% control over the pension they fund, froze, and administer and the ASSociation can not demand any changes either through negotiation or litigation.
     
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  5. WeAAsles

    WeAAsles Veteran

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    Why do you think the coup happened in the International? The IBT, CWA and then the IAM. The only one not trying to raid us was a resurrected International Ladies Garment Workers Union for Gods sake.

    But with most legal agreements once they're written you can't just tear them up and say you don't like them when the guy who was in authority to be able to sign the deals had already done so.
     
  6. WeAAsles

    WeAAsles Veteran

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    The Cheif.

    Samuelsen Joins Bid For Takeover of International

    By SARAH DORSEY | Posted: Monday, July 22, 2013 4:30 pm

    Transport Workers Union Local 100 President John Samuelsen announced July 16 he’ll seek the second-highest office at the TWU International, joining with current Executive Vice President Harry Lombardo in a surprise bid they say will take the union in a more aggressive direction.

    The current International president portrayed the move as a “self-serving” power grab propelled in part by the strictures he’s put on spending since he took over seven years ago.

    Mr. Samuelsen said he has no intention of giving up the Local 100 presidency; he was elected to his second three-year term in December. He insisted in an interview last week that his priority remains obtaining a fair contract for the local, whose last pact expired Jan. 15, 2012.

    The announcement comes just six weeks after International President James Little appointed Mr. Samuelsen to a top-five spot as Administrative Vice President, for which he would have had to compete for re-election at the union’s September convention.

    Mr. Lombardo, the former head of the Philadelphia local, served as one of 11 vice presidents of the International for a decade before being voted second-in-command by the executive council in 2006. He began as a Car Cleaner in the Philadelphia rail system, and as president, led a 1995 strike that resulted in wage increases and other benefits for members. He is seeking the International presidency.

    Mr. Lombardo’s slate last week accused Mr. Little of “timid” leadership, blaming him for an ongoing raid by the International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT) on TWU’s airline mechanics. (The transit union is currently challenging signatures the IBT gathered before the National Mediation Board.)
    The slate also slammed the union’s recent agreement to represent American Airlines workers jointly with the International Association of Machinists. American declared bankruptcy and announced it would merge with US Airways; the IAM currently represents US Airways workers. Mr. Samuelsen believes his union should absorb that cohort.

    The Local 100 leader accused Mr. Little of a “retreat mentality” for orchestrating the IAM coalition rather than pushing the members to decide between the two unions.
    “We vastly outnumber them,” he said. “We’d have won.”

    ‘A Backroom Deal’

    He claimed Mr. Little failed to consult the local presidents or International officials over the deal.
    “What if another union tried to raid our Bus Operators in the Bronx and Manhattan and I decided to fight and...he decide to cut a backroom deal?” he said. “It’s spineless and sleazy.”

    Mr. Samuelsen accused the International president of facilitating the Teamsters raid by allowing them onto the property to collect signatures so another craft union with similar aims couldn’t get a majority. Calling it “the most bizarre and incompetent scheme that I have ever seen hatched in my 25 years in the labor movement,” he said, “He invited the big, bad wolf into the hen house. You can’t then cry foul when the wolf starts eating the chickens.”

    Mr. Little presented a vastly different version of events.

    He said the International’s Administrative Council unanimously approved the vote to join with the machinists. (Mr. Samuelsen, who has sat on the Council since June along with Mr. Lombardo and another member of the slate, denies this.) Mr. Little acknowledged that he didn’t consult the local presidents, arguing that time was tight given the ongoing Teamsters raid. But he said he was taking an even more grassroots step than simply consulting the presidents—

    """"""""he’d be putting the matter to a ballot vote among the 26,000 rank-and-file members in the division""""""""""""

    He also denied his opponents’ depiction of the Teamsters raid. IBT officials approached him because the craft union going after the TWU—the American Mechanics Fraternal Association—was simultaneously seeking to poach Teamsters members at another airline, Mr. Little said.
    Crises like bankruptcies are opportune times to raid other unions.
    “People don’t know if they’re going to have a job; they’re losing benefits; people don’t know where to turn,” he noted, arguing that members will grasp for any solution at such a time.
    He claimed that the Teamsters promised to warn members against an AMFA takeover, but they were really collecting cards supporting their own raid. When enough employees wanted the IBT to represent them, Teamsters President James Hoffa said he “couldn’t walk away from them,” Mr. Little recalled.

    “John has not been involved in that at all,” he said of Mr. Samuelsen. “If he’d spent the time worrying about Local 100” he’d be more successful], he said. “He has no information on what goes on at the airlines.”

    The International president said the airline issues were just “disguises” to mask his opponents’ true gripes. He said he supported direct election of union officers by the rank and file, and his challengers wanted to keep the current delegate system.

    And he said he’d made unpopular changes that alienated some of the Lombardo slate’s supporters.
    “I restricted some salary raises; I made them accountable for expense reports,” he said. “Before I came in, you didn’t even have to fill out expense reports. [People] were handing us shoeboxes with receipts.
    “I’ve put policies in place for procedures that were not regularized [before] so everyone [is now] treated equal. We didn’t have any guidelines, what can you spend money on, what can’t you spend money on. So there are a lot of disgruntled people on staff,” he said.

    Mr. Little acknowledged that airline employees have been disturbed by the turmoil in the industry, which saw merger after merger over the last 10 years. Some blamed the union, and he said he offered to step aside as recently as last year if Mr. Lombardo and others now on his slate thought it would be best. Mr. Little said he was assured he should stay on.
    “I think this whole thing is very self-serving,” he added. “It’s not in the best interest of the membership. Doing this publicly only plays into the problems we have with being raided by the IBT.”

    Marsha Spinowitz, an International vice president who previously represented utility workers as the president of Local 101 in Brooklyn and Queens for 26 years, said she was saddened and shocked by Mr. Lombardo’s announcement.
    “This feels like a marriage split, like a divorce,” she said. “I feel like the family is broken up and all of the kids have to decide if they’re going to live with mommy or daddy.”
    She said when Mr. Samuelsen was offered the Administrative Vice President job last month, it was widely believed there would be harmony among the officers and no challenges would be posed this fall.
    “When we fight each other it certainly does nothing to advance the cause of the labor movement,” she added. “The real enemy is corporate greed.”

    If Mr. Samuelsen becomes Executive Vice President, he won’t be the first Local 100 president to take the second-highest spot while maintaining his old job. Sonny Hall did so in the early 1990s, and John Lawe did both jobs a decade earlier. Mr. Samuelsen said he’s confident he won’t have to spend more time in Washington at the International headquarters than he does now as Administrative Vice President—a couple of days a month.
     
  7. chilokie1

    chilokie1 Senior

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    My concern is
    I think the hidden gem of a company match for the company is the employee needs to fund his portion first. A family member who is a CPA for a large accounting firm told me I would be amazed at the % of employees who do not take advantage of the plans in a majority of the companies he audits. I think a typical 20-25 year old new hire is more concerned about rent, car payment & student loans to jump right into a self funded retirement plan, and I sure remember AA promoting Super Saver a lot more then they do our match plan of today.

    That being said maybe the company considers it a wash.
     
  8. Bob Owens

    Bob Owens Veteran

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    I believe company's concern is that we will push for the contribution like the ACA and APFA has. Yes there is a fairly large percentage that don't meet the 5.5% match and a smaller percentage that doesn't put anything at all. To me that's just plain stupid because even if you take the money out and pay the penalty you already doubled your money. To me it's more absent mindedness than anything. The company automatically signs people up for the 3% contributions and many don't even notice it but fail to increase it to the 5.5 that would get them the naximum match.
    If we end up on the IAMNPF they don't have to worry about us seeking equity with the flight attendants or pilots.
     
  9. Bob Owens

    Bob Owens Veteran

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    One thing I've learned over the last 30 plus years in this Union is what is not said is often more important than what is said. It said there was no agreement to go after our frozen pension, they did not say there would not be.
     
  10. Flying low

    Flying low Veteran

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    Was this on the SAME Q&A sheet that said we would be able to vote on the association?
    If so, do YOU honestly believe we won't be forced into or our frozen pension transfered the IAMNPF?
     
  11. AANOTOK

    AANOTOK Veteran

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    I don't believe either will happen.
     
  12. Birdman

    Birdman Veteran

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    Obviously by reading the Q&A you can see it was. If I were still at AA I would doing the same thing I did for the last 13 years I was there, pushing for an election. I can only hope the best for my former AA coworkers. I HONESTLY BELIEVE the ASSociation cannot force AA to transfer our frozen pension into the IAMNPF.
     
  13. La Li Lu Le Lo

    La Li Lu Le Lo Veteran

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    I had the same question.

    How can the TWU dictate what happens to the pension when they don't "own" it?

    Mind explaining that Bob to the people not so versed in pension law.
     
  14. La Li Lu Le Lo

    La Li Lu Le Lo Veteran

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    So you are saying I should put a transfer in (if I am still able after 4.5 years) for FSC and CS off maximum hours so I can take advantage (maybe) of the IAMNPF?

    Full time pension for part time hours, where do I sign? :D

    Better yet can I work part time and CS off?
     
  15. Bob Owens

    Bob Owens Veteran

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    #55 Bob Owens, May 20, 2017 at 6:33 AM
    Last edited: May 20, 2017 at 7:17 AM
    I don't think our frozen Pension will be forced into the IAMNPF but it "can" happen and everyone should be aware of that. I do believe that going forward the Association, maybe not individual members of the negotiating committee, but the Association has every intent on putting us all into the IAMNPF because that's in writing, the Committee members have no legal say in that and so far it has not been talked about. When that time comes I believe the two Internationals will step in and push that through.My guess is it will be the last item on the list before a TA.
     
  16. Bob Owens

    Bob Owens Veteran

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    #56 Bob Owens, May 20, 2017 at 6:45 AM
    Last edited: May 20, 2017 at 7:33 AM
    Never claimed to be versed in Pension Law but I have looked into it.
    Because legally you agreed to allow the TWU to negotiate for you. Just as the TWU negotiated retirement at 60 , early at 55 less the 3% per year prior to 60. Yes the company owns the Pension, but it negotiates the terms of the Pension with the Unions. That's how it works. I believe that it has happened in other industries already. People think that this money is frozen and guaranteed but its really not. Its pretty common for companies to get rid of their pension obligations, Lump Sum buyouts, transfers to insurance companies by purchasing annuities, etc. basically its like this, "Yes you are entitled to what it says, until it gets changed". And there are many ways it can get changed.
    http://www.pensionrights.org/public...have-transferred-pensions-insurance-companies

    Like I said earlier, and not to cloud up the issue, I don't think they will do this but it can be done and everyone should be aware of that.

    I do believe that going forward, instead of Negotiating a 401K "Contribution"* from the company, like the Pilots and Flight Attendants have, the intent of the Association is to ram us into the IAMNPF. Guys like me, age 56, probably wont even have 5 years in the plan so I wont get anything, just lose around $20k in matching funds. Guys our age would be getting screwed on both ends, we will have funded the early outs of those older than us and fund Pensions of those younger than us.

    * Contribution vs Match, With a Contribution the company puts money in whether or not the employee does. Obviously a Contribution of 5.5% is far superior than a Match of 5.5%.


    More interesting reading;
    http://www.pensionrights.org/newsro...neapolis-teamsters-committee-november-14-2015

    Another thing to watch is for a settlement on the balance of our monies in the Prefunding Plan, I have nearly $9000 being held Hostage by the company there. Thanks to an error on the part of EMPOWER,the holding company, we know that. Some of you out there have much more, I would guess in the $50,000 range.
     
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  17. Bob Owens

    Bob Owens Veteran

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    I agree that the Association cant force AA to transfer our frozen pension to the IAMNPF but they could agree to it as long as there is no reduction of benefits. I believe that any change would not affect active retirees, their Pensions would remain where it is.

    I also believe that AA would definitely prefer to contribute a defined amount into the IAMNPF than deal with the possibility of us pushing for Contributions instead of Matches like most of our represented coworkers and the variables in our matched 401K, OT, participation, pay rates etc, (even if cost wise it was a wash).
     
  18. 1AA

    1AA Veteran

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    With the iampf your guaranteed 40 hours contribution if you work the 40 hours.
    If you CS off 1 or 2 days in that week then you only get contributions of hours worked. If you exceed worked hours totalling 40 hours you only get 40 hours.
    If you make up the 1 or 2 days you CS off from the week before you will not get those contributal hours back. 40 hours max is all you get and you have to work them straight time. Overtime, holidays and CS working like picking up a double will not get you more contributions into the pension. As far as part time employees I don't know the rules because I did not inquire about it since aircraft maintenance has no part time workers (yet). If your a commuter and work doubles then the iampf will screw you over big time.
    We all know how much better the current 401K plan is even though the TWU negotiated the worse one of the three union groups. We need to improve on the 401K and yet the association is pushing to go the other way for the benefit of the iampf instead of its members. We need to get rid of this association and the twu. They have lost touch with the membership and the membership has no confidence in the twu.
     
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  19. La Li Lu Le Lo

    La Li Lu Le Lo Veteran

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    After JFSC don't expect too much sympathy Bob.

    The fact is the IAMNPF is a prime example of greed. It is a bunch of people hoping to benefit from a scam they know is destined to self destruct. As long as someone else pays the penalty they don't care.

    I could really care less if senior people have to fund the pensions for those younger because the fact is the game plan was to screw the younger crowd over the whole time. Just like when senior people voted in JFSC.

    Not so fun when the knife cuts the other way is it?

    Hopefully LAA and new hires won't have to deal with the IAMNPF.

    Just another example of a failed socialist experiment.
     
  20. La Li Lu Le Lo

    La Li Lu Le Lo Veteran

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    That was not supposed to be taken seriously. I was kidding.

    That was supposed to be a tongue in cheek parody of the greed that is the IAMNPF.

    Contribute a little then expect junior people to fund your retirement (Ponzi).
     

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