to my understanding, previous combination of list are set (including what happened to the Flight Attendant seniority prior to the RAL merger with Hughes Airwest).
Why would you vote NO for a union?
- Thread starter jalbalpa
- Start date
For quite some time I temporary had run out of things to despise but now...I have personally grown to despise staying on topic..but then of course that would not be the thread topic.
Yah! Give me a shout out for the Union! Three cheers for the Non-Union! Yah!
is that close to being on topic?
rah-rah....rah.....rah.
Yah! Give me a shout out for the Union! Three cheers for the Non-Union! Yah!
is that close to being on topic?
rah-rah....rah.....rah.
dapoes
Veteran
- May 17, 2008
- 3,543
- 2,716
Maybe you can send Tech your infamous cake recipe. He needs to sweeten up a bit I must say.
nah! probably would just delete it, just like the post!Maybe you can send Tech your infamous cake recipe. He needs to sweeten up a bit I must say.
Yah! Give me an D...Give me an E...where that L....I want to see that E....how bout another T...I got that E....what it spell? Yah!
rah...rah...Ooooh nevermind!
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
- 5,865
As I said in a later correction, you are basically correct where a single union is on the ballot although it's still possible for a union to be elected with less than 50% of votes cast. In theory, a single union on the ballot could be certified by getting the votes of just over 25% of eligible voters but that is an extreme case.
When multiple unions are on the ballot, as in the ALPA/USAPA election for US pilots that I was thinking of in my original post, the union getting the majority of votes cast is certified as long as 50% + 1 of eligible voters cast a ballot. Again, that majority could be only a little over 25% of eligible voters.
In any case, the first hurdle is getting at least 50% + 1 of the eligible voters to actually vote. After that, it's whoever gets a majority of the votes cast. And if no union gets a majority of the votes (as could easily happen with 3 or more unions on the ballot although having that many unions listed would be rare), there is provision for a runoff election.
Jim
{Added ps} While I was typing you deleted your post based on further discussion in the thread. I won't delete this one, but it's just rehashing covered ground. Jim
southwind
Veteran
OK.....guess it's time for my 2 cents worth since you mentioned my name.
Unions had there place in the work force at one time but , lately have become no better that the corporate management they despise. One example is the UAW golf course : http://www.blacklakegolf.com/ Beauatiful, isn't it !
Why does this union OWN a golf course, when so many of their members have suffered pay cuts the last few years ?
Guess it shows where their priorities lie.
Back in the Eastern Airline days, I believe the mechanics and ramp were represented by the same union, IAM ?
And this was "PART" of the reason for the downfall of a great airline. Every time maintanece got a raise, so did ramp, sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, but these are 2 completely "Different" task and as such should be on 2 "Different" pay scales, represented by two different unions. They weren't !
Then there was the NW mechanic/AMFA strike. My respect goes out to the NW mechnics, but what good did having a union do for them?
These are just some of the reasons why I look upon unions the way I do.
However, I do agree with Conehead,if forced to chose, having a craft-type union, no matter how small, that represents their members craft ! i.e. Pilots,FAs,Truckers, etc.
As a member of AFA at US Airways, here is what I "enjoy":
- Increase in dues but decrease in benefits
- After almost ten years I am a career-long reserve with no end in sight (FYI - we have FAs with 20 years on reserve).
- For eight months out of the year I don't even break my guarantee of 73 hours per month.
- I am on duty 24 hours a day, 6 days in a row.
- I have taken multiple pay and benefit cuts.
- As junior FAs, we were slapped in the face at one point when we took a deeper percentage pay cut than higher paid senior FAs.
- There is no such thing as professional standards. FAs act and dress pretty much however they want.
- Benefits for junior FAs are sacrificed to appease senior FAs.
- I may have a voice but no true vote. Many decisions are made without a vote.
- AFA refuses to adapt to a changing industry that includes base closings and layoffs. Change is not an option if changing the status-quos hurts senior membership.
- Our international and domestic service and reputation suffers because our AFA refuses to allow designated pursers or leads. Anyone can be thrown in or thrown out of a lead or purser position based on seniority. It's often a free-for-all with no leadership or guidance.
- Slackers are protected. There is almost no discipline especially for senior FAs. Reserve FAs on the other hand are still treated like they are new-hires on probation.
Whether or not I would be better off without a union -- I'm not certain. Maybe it could be worse.
AFA may come back and say things could be a lot worse if it weren't for our union or that the problem lies with management. They may be right. But isn't that why we supposedly have a union, to protect us from management? I just don't see the benefits.
To sum things up from my perspective -- there is no such thing as a contract as anything can be changed at any time, so don't be fooled. A union might be able to prevent some bad things from happening but it can also delay and block the good things.
Best of luck to you all.
- Increase in dues but decrease in benefits
- After almost ten years I am a career-long reserve with no end in sight (FYI - we have FAs with 20 years on reserve).
- For eight months out of the year I don't even break my guarantee of 73 hours per month.
- I am on duty 24 hours a day, 6 days in a row.
- I have taken multiple pay and benefit cuts.
- As junior FAs, we were slapped in the face at one point when we took a deeper percentage pay cut than higher paid senior FAs.
- There is no such thing as professional standards. FAs act and dress pretty much however they want.
- Benefits for junior FAs are sacrificed to appease senior FAs.
- I may have a voice but no true vote. Many decisions are made without a vote.
- AFA refuses to adapt to a changing industry that includes base closings and layoffs. Change is not an option if changing the status-quos hurts senior membership.
- Our international and domestic service and reputation suffers because our AFA refuses to allow designated pursers or leads. Anyone can be thrown in or thrown out of a lead or purser position based on seniority. It's often a free-for-all with no leadership or guidance.
- Slackers are protected. There is almost no discipline especially for senior FAs. Reserve FAs on the other hand are still treated like they are new-hires on probation.
Whether or not I would be better off without a union -- I'm not certain. Maybe it could be worse.
AFA may come back and say things could be a lot worse if it weren't for our union or that the problem lies with management. They may be right. But isn't that why we supposedly have a union, to protect us from management? I just don't see the benefits.
To sum things up from my perspective -- there is no such thing as a contract as anything can be changed at any time, so don't be fooled. A union might be able to prevent some bad things from happening but it can also delay and block the good things.
Best of luck to you all.
I appreciate your comments. and honestly you probably have a better idea what happens at your airline moreso than someone who simply has a different viewpoint and observation... however what I found interesting was simply the times I have traveled on USAirways the Flight Attendants were very professional and actually appeared very well groomed and put together..maybe you have a better idea of exactly what uniform standards may be and pieces that are regulation, but not really knowing this working at another airline, I honestly have to say the USAirways crews I have encountered, on travels, on the concourses, or simply just seeing as they enter these airports while waiting outside for a ride to the hotel ext... looked..well..nice..
you know the uniform stands for so much more than a blouse and a skirt....a scarf or a tie..a jacket or just a dress and slacks. it is a legacy and it represents so much more than just a "look". it is what the uniform represents that is important..that is the history behind it is standing for professionalism, honor, safety and those who fought for every issue before us generations ago.
during the entire time facing pay cuts I took an effort to make sure there was enough money budgeted to have the uniform professionally cleaned and pressed, and even though not every time that could be done, always took great care to make sure it was always maintained properly. today the whole uniform goes to the cleaners on a particular day when I get the discount! also, some dry cleaners will actually give a discount if you pay up front instead of paying when picking up at a later time, the cleaner I use actually gives 15 percent off, so its something to either keep in mind or just ask for..it is just that important to me anyway, and it more than just having a crisp polished uniform piece.
there are two things a Flight Attendant can do.. to set the whole tone of the flight...and it happens during the boarding process.
If a Flight Attendant simply looks very professional in their uniform(that does not mean in complete uniform because there are times when it is too hot to wear a jacket) but wearing well maintained pieces and greets the passengers as they come on board with a simple "hello" or if you are in the galley preparing a pre departure beverage for First simply look up and acknowledge the person walking by.. with a simple "how are you today"... and do that to as many people who walk by(because there are times when we cannot always be right at the door) the tone will be set for the flight and most passengers(not all) will have an idea this is a professional flight crew by simply doing two things....Look professional, say hello...and it can make a big difference right from the beginning.
but you know that is up to the individual, professional standards should really never be an issue with a Flight Attendant especially regarding the uniform, and thankfully the majority I have encountered throughout the industry set a fine example for our profession... for you to post your concern simply tells me... you are more than likely one who takes great pride at USAirways(one of many I am sure!)
I live in the real world, I am out there on the line, I get it, I know every day can be a challenge, but sometimes if we take the time to do the simple things(that really arent that hard to do) it can make the world of a difference.
regarding the rest of your post I understand, these are very challenging times for us all, but we will get through it, all of us.
Thank you so much for your wishes of good luck it is so deeply appreciated from this friend at NW/DAL.
Have a great day
Dignity, thanks for your post.
Yes, we have many flight attendants at US who take great pride in their profession and I'm thrilled that you have encountered this professionalism first-hand.
I too have encountered very positive experiences with DL crews as well. I know at Delta you have a unique culture and I would hate to see you lose that. I fear Delta would become an "AFA" Delta rather than an "our" Delta... as a union culture is much different.
Your voice no longer goes through to the company but rather through to your union and often gets lost. The company will no longer see FAs as individuals but rather as union members. Your voice is only heard through a union rep.
The"us-against-them" mentality and all the constant battles a union brings grows tiresome and stressful, trust me. AFA will be divisive and split you into the "haves" and the "have-nots", I can almost guarantee it. You will all pay the same amount in dues but the majority will rule and it will be "too bad" to the rest.
Yes, we have many flight attendants at US who take great pride in their profession and I'm thrilled that you have encountered this professionalism first-hand.
I too have encountered very positive experiences with DL crews as well. I know at Delta you have a unique culture and I would hate to see you lose that. I fear Delta would become an "AFA" Delta rather than an "our" Delta... as a union culture is much different.
Your voice no longer goes through to the company but rather through to your union and often gets lost. The company will no longer see FAs as individuals but rather as union members. Your voice is only heard through a union rep.
The"us-against-them" mentality and all the constant battles a union brings grows tiresome and stressful, trust me. AFA will be divisive and split you into the "haves" and the "have-nots", I can almost guarantee it. You will all pay the same amount in dues but the majority will rule and it will be "too bad" to the rest.
PHLflyer...thanks for your input and I'm sorry things are challenging for your group right now.
You list some legitimate concerns, however, I think the success of a mgt/union relationship depends on BOTH teams of leadership. You can't do anything about who leads USAirways, but you can do something about your union leadership, right?
Thre is a successful relationship, to my knowledge, between AFA and Alaska Airlines FAs and they have a great contract. If we believe in the Delta culture, as it were, and have confidence in our leadership team (as they want us to do a la "don't vote; give it (the ballot) a rip" , per the last campaign), AND we vote in competent, caring AFA leadership, then there should be a healthy, constructive, progressive, symbiotic relationship, no?
I think the main reasons many at NW/DL want a contract are really two:
1. From the NW side: The possibility that Mgt. could try to outsource Int'l flying as they did with them a couple of years ago. (And remember, an overwhelming number of the New Delta's leadership team is former NW).
2. For those of us from Delta: The drug-testing debaucle of '99/2000, even though it's been almost 10 years ago left a big impression on many of us when we saw friends fired, their phone calls not returned, their reputations battered when their tests came back "inconsistent with human urine." These f/a's were essentially told by Inflite Mgt, that the lab was fine, they (inflite) had complete confidence in the lab..hence, the affected f/a's must be lying.
ONLY..and ONLY, when this same test result came back for a pilot (it tended to happen to thin, often vegeterian people as the test involves creatine levels, mostly contained in beef, chicken)..THEN a union got involved.. ALPA sent their team to the lab, did a thorough study and found the lab to be woefully inadequate in their testing standards. Long story short....the pilot was offered his job back, therefore the f/a's were as well. Had it not happened to the pilot, these f/a's would STILL not be employed at Delta (and possibly not any other airline as well) and, in many people's minds who may not have known them, guilty of substituting their urine samples.
I know it left a big impression on me as to how without anyone in your corner (without protection), you can be hung out to dry. (I knew one of the FAs).
So, to me, AFA is not perfect in any way and truthfully, wish we could form our own in-house union, but knowing how difficult that can be, I feel I, at this time, have this choice offered to me...at THIS time.
I also appreciate the Delta "culture" and I think we have many fine people here, not only in the ranks, but managers as well. But, like others here have said, I like things in writing...my insurance, my loans, my investments.. even receipts for groceries...why shouldn't I have my major source of income in writing?
Just my .02
Boeingboy had made a comment on a another thread and post regarding basically... stated... "I haven't seen a perfect union yet, nor have I seen a management that didn't attempt to get the most from the employees for the least cost"... the most realistic comment to me.. regarding this entire situation.
being we are all professional crew members, it is imperative and very important the attempt to keep personal views regarding management and unions separate from our workplaces(and I know that is not always an easy thing to do). sometimes it seems these ideas of "they arent treating me fair", or "it should be this way", or "why cant someone just listen to me"...spills over to how we perform our job functions..and our very own ideas.
what I have learned is to look at a situation for what it is and determine if this way(whatever it may be) or what is to be considered will be not only to the benefit of the group but also...the profession even if it appears I may be making personal sacrifices for a time because...."nothing is perfect"...however at least I have the opportunity to voice my concern, sometimes...we dont always realize how good we have something or how it really is..until its gone..(I know that may come across like a BS comment but seriously..it can be true)
I try not to fall into the "us against them mentality" or at least try very hard not to! why? because I cannot allow someone's attempt or what they try to do affect my being and try to keep thoughts being anything other than positive...because I know somehow/someway it will affect my overall performance(because it always will if it is allowed)...I hope that makes some sense..and I know its very difficult to do..because I have been there..
PHLflyer, I understand completely where you are coming from, I really do...but trying to stay focused on what may be necessary is something I try to do while also being very realistic that it is not perfect one way or another..
I often wonder, if it is "that bad" with protection...I can only imagine what it would be...without.
thank you for your comments as a different perspective help others form and make..informed decisions.
LukeAisleWalker, you have a very valid argument and I can't disagree on anything you said.
Like I said, just keep in mind that just because something is written down on paper doesn't make it full-proof. And remember, anything a union can protect you from in the workplace, so could a good lawyer. There are rules out there that protect everyone, not just union members.
A fellow FA just reminded me of a good point.
Our union has always blame management, yet at US Airways after going through management team after management team, one thing has remained constant – AFA. Yet our working conditions get worse and worse. So who has really failed us?
Keep in mind that AFA has two main goals – to recruit and make money. It is in their best interest to constantly pit employees against management or their reason for existence is gone and so is their ability to recruit.
I think unions can be a positive force when their intentions are right. I just haven’t seen it with our AFA.
Like I said, just keep in mind that just because something is written down on paper doesn't make it full-proof. And remember, anything a union can protect you from in the workplace, so could a good lawyer. There are rules out there that protect everyone, not just union members.
A fellow FA just reminded me of a good point.
Our union has always blame management, yet at US Airways after going through management team after management team, one thing has remained constant – AFA. Yet our working conditions get worse and worse. So who has really failed us?
Keep in mind that AFA has two main goals – to recruit and make money. It is in their best interest to constantly pit employees against management or their reason for existence is gone and so is their ability to recruit.
I think unions can be a positive force when their intentions are right. I just haven’t seen it with our AFA.
that is a very powerful comment and true especially when people focus on the group by getting behind each other and fully supporting each other...regarding any association/community activity/life in general.
all personal experiences(good or not so good) and view points are important..as mentioned earlier...for informed decisions.
Let me also add that despite my objections to our union and my predicament as a reserve, I really do love my job and don't put all the blame on our union.
I don't want to come off as bitter. I'm really not. I'm just sharing my thoughts. I would be the first one to start listing the things I love about my job.
I take the good with the bad. My happiness does not depend on my union or management, it depends on me. Trust me, if I didn't love what I do I would have left a long time ago.
It's hard when you have friends at other airlines, especially other AFA airlines, and you see what they have and you don't. But then again I have things that they don't.
Nothing is ever perfect, and I accept that.
The reality of this situation is we probably are better off with unions. Especially in today's economic world where wages and the middle class continue to shrink. We do need a force that can be heard above corporate and shareholder greed and CEO salaries.
I don't want to come off as bitter. I'm really not. I'm just sharing my thoughts. I would be the first one to start listing the things I love about my job.
I take the good with the bad. My happiness does not depend on my union or management, it depends on me. Trust me, if I didn't love what I do I would have left a long time ago.
It's hard when you have friends at other airlines, especially other AFA airlines, and you see what they have and you don't. But then again I have things that they don't.
Nothing is ever perfect, and I accept that.
The reality of this situation is we probably are better off with unions. Especially in today's economic world where wages and the middle class continue to shrink. We do need a force that can be heard above corporate and shareholder greed and CEO salaries.
