Yep, jetBlue management can do whatever they want to. Apparently, they want to take care of their people and their customers. Now there is a novel thought.
Will JetBlue A320 pilots ask for union representation if Neeleman exchanges A320 routes for Embraer
- Thread starter AAplanesareold
- Start date
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LGA Fleet Service
Veteran
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AAplanesareold wrote:
I have no interest in stirring any pots.
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Yeah, Huh?
- Thread Starter
- #18
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On 7/28/2003 9:35:14 AM Diesel8 wrote:
While you may have been laughing, the finacial community was not, the offering was snapped up and the stock price is still up there.
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On 7/28/2003 9:35:14 AM Diesel8 wrote:
While you may have been laughing, the finacial community was not, the offering was snapped up and the stock price is still up there.
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We'll see where the stock price goes when labor unrest rears it's ugly head at JetBlue. If JetBlue pilots agree on union representation; I am dead certain that the stock price will go south in a hurry.
Busdrvr,
So I guess the "senior" UAL pilots on the 777 should "watch their backs" since UAL are still taking A-320's and starting the Blowfish LCC.
Of course, the bus pays as much as the 777 at UAL, right?
I am not sure, if it was with you or some other UAL person, I had a discussion about Unitedplus, but that was lauded as a great idea. Of course, it cost a bit more to travel in that section. Yes, most customers desire more room, but most are not willing to pay through the nose to sit in first or business. jetBlue is planning on more room, yet the cost may be the same or slightly more. The number I heard was, that an increase of a couple of dollars would offset the loss. We will see, if that is indeed the case and if jetBlue decides to raise fares.
What the final seat pitch on the EMB will be, who knows, right now there will be 100 seats, that could well change.
While you may have been laughing, the finacial community was not, the offering was snapped up and the stock price is still up there.
So I guess the "senior" UAL pilots on the 777 should "watch their backs" since UAL are still taking A-320's and starting the Blowfish LCC.
Of course, the bus pays as much as the 777 at UAL, right?
I am not sure, if it was with you or some other UAL person, I had a discussion about Unitedplus, but that was lauded as a great idea. Of course, it cost a bit more to travel in that section. Yes, most customers desire more room, but most are not willing to pay through the nose to sit in first or business. jetBlue is planning on more room, yet the cost may be the same or slightly more. The number I heard was, that an increase of a couple of dollars would offset the loss. We will see, if that is indeed the case and if jetBlue decides to raise fares.
What the final seat pitch on the EMB will be, who knows, right now there will be 100 seats, that could well change.
While you may have been laughing, the finacial community was not, the offering was snapped up and the stock price is still up there.
"The EMB will not generate training cost increases because at JB, once hired on as an EMB pilot, that is where you will be for your career".This is available for your listening pleasure today."
Didn't they also say the EMB would pay less? You "senior jetblu Capts" better watch your back. The latest SEC filings have been good for a few good laughs too. Jetblu is spinnning the removal of seats as something they are doing "because the customer wanted it". Then WHY are they ordering the EMB-190 with 31 inch seat pitch? They also say they'll make up the diff in CASM caused by seat removal with "better yield management" (ie jetblue plans to RAISE the average fare). Why haven't you done that all along?
Didn't they also say the EMB would pay less? You "senior jetblu Capts" better watch your back. The latest SEC filings have been good for a few good laughs too. Jetblu is spinnning the removal of seats as something they are doing "because the customer wanted it". Then WHY are they ordering the EMB-190 with 31 inch seat pitch? They also say they'll make up the diff in CASM caused by seat removal with "better yield management" (ie jetblue plans to RAISE the average fare). Why haven't you done that all along?
When the JB EMB order was announced, I heard an interesting qoute from the CEO and CFO at the Merrill Lynch conference in NYC. The qoute goes:
"The EMB will not generate training cost increases because at JB, once hired on as an EMB pilot, that is where you will be for your career".This is available for your listening pleasure today.
I thought that was an interesting quote, and smacked me as a group who could be in for some trouble in the future. Anyone who believes that none of these management types have anything in common are only fooling themselves.
Pilots/employees ultimately payfor rocket science like the quote above. Sure it saves money, however, folks hiring on as an EMB pilot at lesser payrates will not be content staying on that aircraft forever.
Depending on JB's growth rate and financial success, they will be lucky to get by for 1-2 more years before unionizing (inhouse or ALPA). The pilots would be fools to not do so. The target bullseye around a pilot neck is too lucrative a target for any management to pass up.
"The EMB will not generate training cost increases because at JB, once hired on as an EMB pilot, that is where you will be for your career".This is available for your listening pleasure today.
I thought that was an interesting quote, and smacked me as a group who could be in for some trouble in the future. Anyone who believes that none of these management types have anything in common are only fooling themselves.
Pilots/employees ultimately payfor rocket science like the quote above. Sure it saves money, however, folks hiring on as an EMB pilot at lesser payrates will not be content staying on that aircraft forever.
Depending on JB's growth rate and financial success, they will be lucky to get by for 1-2 more years before unionizing (inhouse or ALPA). The pilots would be fools to not do so. The target bullseye around a pilot neck is too lucrative a target for any management to pass up.
Did not hear the call, so cannot refute your claim. But, from what the compnay has told the pilots, you will not end up staying on the EMB. If you desire to fly the A-320 you will get a position, provided of course your have the seniority and there is a need at the time. Pretty standard.
The company has even said, that current A-320 drivers can pick the EMB. Of course, it would be a slight paycut, but it may offer QOL improvements, ie you could be based at your home city or have layovers there.
The company has even said, that current A-320 drivers can pick the EMB. Of course, it would be a slight paycut, but it may offer QOL improvements, ie you could be based at your home city or have layovers there.
Well, not much point in this argument. You believe what you will, I cannot change that. I will continue to believe in this management, until such time they show, that they have less than honorable intentions.
As far as the EMB is concerned, no where have I heard that you cannot transition. I can only tell you, what I have heard from management during their meetings. I might add, doing anything other than that is lunacy and will divide the workforce, I do not anticipate it happening.
Stock valuations probably interest a lot of people, but rightfully, it does not say much as you have pointed out, heck, what was UAL, a 100 or so a share? But if the people are running away, why is the stock not declinning, why do we not see some serious selling going on? Secondly, it must be remembered, that jetBlue is one of the few stocks doing well, if I was fundmanager, I might be tempted to sell, simply to show something positive to my customers. After all, most MF have lost or are loosing badly.
We can continue this ad infinitum, you have your mind made up that jetBlue will screw their employees, I do not agree. Only time will tell, so far, so good.
BTW, from the finacial community for your edification.
www.businessweek.com/investor/content/jul2003/pi20030728_0669_pi008.htm
From MorganStanley:
JBLU exceeded our June estimates for traffic, capacity and load factor
JBLU's reported traffic and capacity were 11% and 8% better than our model, respectively. This resulted in a June load factor 2.1 points higher than our forecast and a load factor for the quarter that was 0.7 points above our published model.
Raising EPS slightly in light of June's solid numbers
We are adding $0.02 per share to our 2Q03 EPS in light of June's strong traffic results. Our new EPS will be $0.29 per share, a penny higher than consensus. We have also added a nickel to our 2004 EPS estimate which now stands at $1.55.
As far as the EMB is concerned, no where have I heard that you cannot transition. I can only tell you, what I have heard from management during their meetings. I might add, doing anything other than that is lunacy and will divide the workforce, I do not anticipate it happening.
Stock valuations probably interest a lot of people, but rightfully, it does not say much as you have pointed out, heck, what was UAL, a 100 or so a share? But if the people are running away, why is the stock not declinning, why do we not see some serious selling going on? Secondly, it must be remembered, that jetBlue is one of the few stocks doing well, if I was fundmanager, I might be tempted to sell, simply to show something positive to my customers. After all, most MF have lost or are loosing badly.
We can continue this ad infinitum, you have your mind made up that jetBlue will screw their employees, I do not agree. Only time will tell, so far, so good.
BTW, from the finacial community for your edification.
www.businessweek.com/investor/content/jul2003/pi20030728_0669_pi008.htm
From MorganStanley:
JBLU exceeded our June estimates for traffic, capacity and load factor
JBLU's reported traffic and capacity were 11% and 8% better than our model, respectively. This resulted in a June load factor 2.1 points higher than our forecast and a load factor for the quarter that was 0.7 points above our published model.
Raising EPS slightly in light of June's solid numbers
We are adding $0.02 per share to our 2Q03 EPS in light of June's strong traffic results. Our new EPS will be $0.29 per share, a penny higher than consensus. We have also added a nickel to our 2004 EPS estimate which now stands at $1.55.
"So I guess the "senior" UAL pilots on the 777 should "watch their backs" since UAL are still taking A-320's and starting the Blowfish LCC.
Of course, the bus pays as much as the 777 at UAL, right?"
The differance is I can one day fly the 777, Neeleman says the EMB guys won't be going over to the 320. Who do you think he's lying to? The money or YOU. BTW, it's codenamed "starfish", if you want this to degenerate into name calling, we can.
"I had a discussion about Unitedplus, but that was lauded as a great idea."
EconomyPlus, and I've never thought it was a good idea. When you charge the same price for a seat on a 138 seat jet vs a 162/156 seat jet, thew math doesn't work out.
"While you may have been laughing, the finacial community was not, the offering was snapped up and the stock price is still up there."
Actually, some of the more credible names in the financial community have run away, but I did read a positive revue from somebody from "chickswithnesteggs". need I remind you of the market caps of Pets.com and "Webvan just a couple years ago?
"What the final seat pitch on the EMB will be, who knows, right now there will be 100 seats, that could well change."
I'm going by the statements of your CEO and the EMB website. Dave would NEVER lie would he? He does say the CASM would be approx one cent higher for the 100 seat jet (assuming low training cost derived from a VERY big fence). So you think he'll cut it to 90 seats? 80? What's the CASM become then? You've got a BELF of over 70% with the AB (assuming the "liberal" accounting policies of JBlu). you gonna jack CASMs up 10, 20 or 30% and everything will be peachy? WOW. If you want to know why some of the less enlightened ANALyst like ramond james think the EMB is a good idea, then read the reports. They think since you are NONUNION, Dave can keep the pilot lists seperate
Of course, the bus pays as much as the 777 at UAL, right?"
The differance is I can one day fly the 777, Neeleman says the EMB guys won't be going over to the 320. Who do you think he's lying to? The money or YOU. BTW, it's codenamed "starfish", if you want this to degenerate into name calling, we can.
"I had a discussion about Unitedplus, but that was lauded as a great idea."
EconomyPlus, and I've never thought it was a good idea. When you charge the same price for a seat on a 138 seat jet vs a 162/156 seat jet, thew math doesn't work out.
"While you may have been laughing, the finacial community was not, the offering was snapped up and the stock price is still up there."
Actually, some of the more credible names in the financial community have run away, but I did read a positive revue from somebody from "chickswithnesteggs". need I remind you of the market caps of Pets.com and "Webvan just a couple years ago?
"What the final seat pitch on the EMB will be, who knows, right now there will be 100 seats, that could well change."
I'm going by the statements of your CEO and the EMB website. Dave would NEVER lie would he? He does say the CASM would be approx one cent higher for the 100 seat jet (assuming low training cost derived from a VERY big fence). So you think he'll cut it to 90 seats? 80? What's the CASM become then? You've got a BELF of over 70% with the AB (assuming the "liberal" accounting policies of JBlu). you gonna jack CASMs up 10, 20 or 30% and everything will be peachy? WOW. If you want to know why some of the less enlightened ANALyst like ramond james think the EMB is a good idea, then read the reports. They think since you are NONUNION, Dave can keep the pilot lists seperate
As usual busdrvr, the sources for your quotes and information are full of wrong information, but which you are more than happy to use anyway to push your foolish and inept agendas.
I listened to the ML CC and DN NEVER said at that time, or since, that JBLU EMB-190 pilots would be locked out of the A320 indefinitely. DN can be accused of a lot of things, but being greedy and stupid are not what comes to most rational persons' minds.
Look people, before you post some of the ridiculous stuff that you do, stop and think for a minute if it passes the old sniff test. Do you think for one moment that if JBLU management instituted such a plan that it would seriously jeopardize their much bigger desire to not piss off the pilots, who would then become forever distrustful of management, unionize, and become like United, or AMR, or US Airways, or ......
For you pot stirrers, who so often represent old-school major airline pilot groups, you'll need to find something else to hang your hats on, in the hope that JBLU will crumble away into oblivion; hoping that management at JBLU tries to screw over its pilots, like management at your airline has done to you repeatedly over the years.
I listened to the ML CC and DN NEVER said at that time, or since, that JBLU EMB-190 pilots would be locked out of the A320 indefinitely. DN can be accused of a lot of things, but being greedy and stupid are not what comes to most rational persons' minds.
Look people, before you post some of the ridiculous stuff that you do, stop and think for a minute if it passes the old sniff test. Do you think for one moment that if JBLU management instituted such a plan that it would seriously jeopardize their much bigger desire to not piss off the pilots, who would then become forever distrustful of management, unionize, and become like United, or AMR, or US Airways, or ......
For you pot stirrers, who so often represent old-school major airline pilot groups, you'll need to find something else to hang your hats on, in the hope that JBLU will crumble away into oblivion; hoping that management at JBLU tries to screw over its pilots, like management at your airline has done to you repeatedly over the years.
Busdrvr,
You can educate me on this one though. When management at ALPA Majors ask for a paycut from the pilots, the standard answer is, that pilot cost is not the reason for lack of profits, its poor management. Yet in this case, you claim the reason for profits is low pay. Pay which, I might add, is higher than a few unionized carriers. Further, the most heavily unionized carrier, namely SWA, is also the most profitable. So which is it?
Someone said, that companies who deserves unions gets them. Apparently, the pilot body at B6, who comes from many and varied backgrounds, have yet to see the reason for one.
I for one, do not wish for the likes of Rich Dubinsky on the property.
You can educate me on this one though. When management at ALPA Majors ask for a paycut from the pilots, the standard answer is, that pilot cost is not the reason for lack of profits, its poor management. Yet in this case, you claim the reason for profits is low pay. Pay which, I might add, is higher than a few unionized carriers. Further, the most heavily unionized carrier, namely SWA, is also the most profitable. So which is it?
Someone said, that companies who deserves unions gets them. Apparently, the pilot body at B6, who comes from many and varied backgrounds, have yet to see the reason for one.
I for one, do not wish for the likes of Rich Dubinsky on the property.
- Thread Starter
- #27
For everyone's review, I'm pasting word for word, my original post:
Just a question for JetBlue pilots (or anyone else):
If Neeleman takes away A320 flying and gives it to Embraer pilots a couple of years from now, would the JetBlue A320 pilots seek union representation?
In other words, if the Embraer pilots start displacing A320 pilots.
Curious minds want to know.
Having done that, why such polarization? I just wanted some opinions on this scenario. It's not like the second coming of Christ people! Why such pent up anger on the subject of unionization? It's part and parcel of this industry we all love.
Just a question for JetBlue pilots (or anyone else):
If Neeleman takes away A320 flying and gives it to Embraer pilots a couple of years from now, would the JetBlue A320 pilots seek union representation?
In other words, if the Embraer pilots start displacing A320 pilots.
Curious minds want to know.
As of now (and it could change I admit) there will be no JetBlue A320 or EMB pilots. There will only be JetBlue pilots. There will be limits on bidding, last I heard, changing aircraft type will be a one time good deal, but there will not be seperate pilot groups.
- Thread Starter
- #29
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On 7/28/2003 1:23:49 PM michael707767 wrote:
As of now (and it could change I admit) there will be no JetBlue A320 or EMB pilots. There will only be JetBlue pilots. There will be limits on bidding, last I heard, changing aircraft type will be a one time good deal, but there will not be seperate pilot groups.
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On 7/28/2003 1:23:49 PM michael707767 wrote:
As of now (and it could change I admit) there will be no JetBlue A320 or EMB pilots. There will only be JetBlue pilots. There will be limits on bidding, last I heard, changing aircraft type will be a one time good deal, but there will not be seperate pilot groups.
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Wouldn't limits on bidding and a lower pay scale (see original Embraer announcement on this or JetBlue's website), for all effects and purposes, create a separate pilot group?
I mean, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, acts like a duck...by golly, it is a duck!!!
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On 7/28/2003 9:53:01 AM AAplanesareold wrote:
We'll see where the stock price goes when labor unrest rears it's ugly head at JetBlue. If JetBlue pilots agree on union representation; I am dead certain that the stock price will go south in a hurry.
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Gee ya think? Man you're brilliant!On 7/28/2003 9:53:01 AM AAplanesareold wrote:
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On 7/28/2003 9:35:14 AM Diesel8 wrote:
While you may have been laughing, the finacial community was not, the offering was snapped up and the stock price is still up there.
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On 7/28/2003 9:35:14 AM Diesel8 wrote:
While you may have been laughing, the finacial community was not, the offering was snapped up and the stock price is still up there.
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We'll see where the stock price goes when labor unrest rears it's ugly head at JetBlue. If JetBlue pilots agree on union representation; I am dead certain that the stock price will go south in a hurry.
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