WN Mechanics seek mediation

[dgaf]

We were talking a little about the UPS contract TA the other day, and as I suspected but wasn't sure, one has to keep in mind that part of their tasty offer is because they don't have same scope concerns we do. They are strictly line mx. Now they do have a man in almost every station they go to from what I hear though. So yea, if we gave up our hangars, C Checks, structure work, etc, then we probably would have something that mirrors their contract real well. Something to think about, because a lot of guys probably aren't aware of that, like I wasn't.

 

[B737 driver]

We were talking a little about the UPS contract TA the other day, and as I suspected but wasn't sure, one has to keep in mind that part of their tasty offer is because they don't have same scope concerns we do. They are strictly line mx. Now they do have a man in almost every station they go to from what I hear though. So yea, if we gave up our hangars, C Checks, structure work, etc, then we probably would have something that mirrors their contract real well. Something to think about, because a lot of guys probably aren't aware of that, like I wasn't.

Their maintenance group is less than half our size, they do have some hangars they only do line maintenance.

 

[swamt]

In reference to that Reset here at UAL.... We pretty well expect any attempt to use it to be denied. They would tell us something stupid like our uniforms are a benefit worth ten dollars an hour or something else equally stupid.

Exactly. You can have all the "me too" clauses in the world. Getting them implemented is another story. Hence the reason our co. was so easily willing to go with the "me-too" clauses in our AIP-T/A.
Me-too clauses can also be used against you as well, just ask another airline mechanics about how it was used against them...

 

[swamt]

We were talking a little about the UPS contract TA the other day, and as I suspected but wasn't sure, one has to keep in mind that part of their tasty offer is because they don't have same scope concerns we do. They are strictly line mx. Now they do have a man in almost every station they go to from what I hear though. So yea, if we gave up our hangars, C Checks, structure work, etc, then we probably would have something that mirrors their contract real well. Something to think about, because a lot of guys probably aren't aware of that, like I wasn't.

They do work out of service a/c when at a hangar location, otherwise it's all contracted out. They also do up to "B" checks only. All "C" checks and up are outsourced. Not sure how many mechanics they have, but if I were to guess it would be about 1,000 maybe 1200 but that's all guesses on my part.
I have some good friends working there and they all say it ran like a prison camp. But, the guys I know there love the 3-13's they work over the weekends. 4 days off every week. Pretty nice...

 

[dgaf]

They do work out of service a/c when at a hangar location, otherwise it's all contracted out. They also do up to "B" checks only. All "C" checks and up are outsourced. Not sure how many mechanics they have, but if I were to guess it would be about 1,000 maybe 1200 but that's all guesses on my part.
I have some good friends working there and they all say it ran like a prison camp. But, the guys I know there love the 3-13's they work over the weekends. 4 days off every week. Pretty nice...

Thanks for the info. When I mentioned no hangar work, I meant to say, hangar work that most of us are accustom to, be it Hron, C Check, Mod work, etc. I didn't really think about Out of Service stuff, obviously if they have a gear issue or big flight control job, they are going to want to be in the hangar to perform those jobs. Your comment on running it like a prison, is spot on with the remark I heard, like a Gestapo. As I said, that contract proposal looks pretty sweet, just want to make sure guys understand the scope issues are a little different between us and them. It's not a true apples to apples comparison.

 

[B737 driver]

Thanks for the info. When I mentioned no hangar work, I meant to say, hangar work that most of us are accustom to, be it Hron, C Check, Mod work, etc. I didn't really think about Out of Service stuff, obviously if they have a gear issue or big flight control job, they are going to want to be in the hangar to perform those jobs. Your comment on running it like a prison, is spot on with the remark I heard, like a Gestapo. As I said, that contract proposal looks pretty sweet, just want to make sure guys understand the scope issues are a little different between us and them. It's not a true apples to apples comparison.

Yeah, they expect when lunch or break is over to be back to work just like Fed Ex does. Most Airline mechanics wouldn't want to work like that. We are laid back compared to them.

 

[swamt]

Thanks for the info. When I mentioned no hangar work, I meant to say, hangar work that most of us are accustom to, be it Hron, C Check, Mod work, etc. I didn't really think about Out of Service stuff, obviously if they have a gear issue or big flight control job, they are going to want to be in the hangar to perform those jobs. Your comment on running it like a prison, is spot on with the remark I heard, like a Gestapo. As I said, that contract proposal looks pretty sweet, just want to make sure guys understand the scope issues are a little different between us and them. It's not a true apples to apples comparison.

No prob. dgaf.
And your right, hangars are needed for certain work being performed. UPS will rent hangar spaces if at an airport that they don't have their own hangars. Another big reason UPS uses hangars for are for when gear swings are required after performing certain maint.
I have also heard that they run the "prison inmates" (lol) real hard in their loading stations where the loaders load all the 18 wheelers and delivery trucks where management uses stopwatches to time the loads. If you are not within the parameters you are removed, relocated, or even fired. Sad, but true. My son has worked for both UPS and FedEx loading stations and you work non stop until all trucks are loaded and out of there, then you get the long awaited "long" breaks. Pretty sure it's the same with the aircraft loaders too.
You are also correct about the difference in scope language. However, we are all fully responsible for anything that happens with these aircraft, passengers, flight crews as well as human life on the ground, if anything goes wrong until the aircraft is retired, destroyed, or no longer in service. Even if these aircraft change air carriers, our sign offs follow them to the bone yard. In other words, no matter if we work freighters or passenger airliners we have the same, if not a little more with passenger aircraft, responsibility...
dgaf, I still am on the fence as far as which way I will vote. I am waiting for final decision to be made after all the RS's are done from both union and co. Once I have all my info I will vote accordingly as I se fit for me, my family and our futures. Good luck to you and yours on this contract offer. At this point I'm like most here. I would be fine if it gets voted down and I would be fine if it gets voted in. I will not shame anyone for the way they vote. Whatever the turn out it will be what the majority wants, and I will respect whatever that is and move on.
Great talking with you, have a good one...

 

[Birdman]

Perhaps after the MDW RS today someone will give us an update. I would really like to see the union provide information on questions asked at RS's. SWAMT, I too am looking long and hard at how to vote and have yet to decide. While the money is ok it is not up to the Aug 2016 offer as we would now be at $46.67 base rather than $44.30 if ratified now. I understand that was a "give up scope" offer and the company was willing to ante up to get it. For me it would be a much easier decision if we were not giving up the 2.75 and station protection offered in Jan 18'.

 

[B737 driver]

Perhaps after the MDW RS today someone will give us an update. I would really like to see the union provide information on questions asked at RS's. SWAMT, I too am looking long and hard at how to vote and have yet to decide. While the money is ok it is not up to the Aug 2016 offer as we would now be at $46.67 base rather than $44.30 if ratified now. I understand that was a "give up scope" offer and the company was willing to ante up to get it. For me it would be a much easier decision if we were not giving up the 2.75 and station protection offered in Jan 18'.

Birdman the last union meeting we ask Cramer about the station protections that would have gutted our scope, and only been good for 5 years. That's why the negotiating committee , did not take it. I hope it passes, but if it doesn't so be. Just everyone needs to vote.

 

[swamt]

Perhaps after the MDW RS today someone will give us an update. I would really like to see the union provide information on questions asked at RS's. SWAMT, I too am looking long and hard at how to vote and have yet to decide. While the money is ok it is not up to the Aug 2016 offer as we would now be at $46.67 base rather than $44.30 if ratified now. I understand that was a "give up scope" offer and the company was willing to ante up to get it. For me it would be a much easier decision if we were not giving up the 2.75 and station protection offered in Jan 18'.

I was hoping to hear from some of the Florida guys by now. Hopefully we will hear from some MDW guys.
I agree with the numbers we should be at by Aug. With that diff., as well as the no raise in 18, and the 3% short on snap up all adds up. It's not just a few pennies on the dollar as some of the yes voters have been claiming. Plus after compounding it looks even worse.
I think we agree on the "give up scope" comment. However, I cannot look at that as a trade off when the co. has gave us 3% raises in the past for each year for "NO" scope change and most all of them were simple extensions leaving everything as is.
I don't wanna lose that 2.75 either. Why all of a sudden is the 2.75 such a huge deal with the co., THAT is what worries me. I wanna also know the reasons behind the removal of those station protections offered in Jan 2018. Seems very fishy that the co. wants those 2 items back so badly.
I believe that these two items (2.75 not going to 3.4) and station protection, along with the short snap up, short base pay as of Aug 2018, and the no 2018 raise will be the biggest issues if this is voted down.
Maybe, and hopefully, some MDW guys will start to chime in and discuss how their meetings went. Perhaps they have already started discussing on FB by now...

 

[737MAX7]

I was hoping to hear from some of the Florida guys by now. Hopefully we will hear from some MDW guys.
I agree with the numbers we should be at by Aug. With that diff., as well as the no raise in 18, and the 3% short on snap up all adds up. It's not just a few pennies on the dollar as some of the yes voters have been claiming. Plus after compounding it looks even worse.
I think we agree on the "give up scope" comment. However, I cannot look at that as a trade off when the co. has gave us 3% raises in the past for each year for "NO" scope change and most all of them were simple extensions leaving everything as is.
I don't wanna lose that 2.75 either. Why all of a sudden is the 2.75 such a huge deal with the co., THAT is what worries me. I wanna also know the reasons behind the removal of those station protections offered in Jan 2018. Seems very fishy that the co. wants those 2 items back so badly.
I believe that these two items (2.75 not going to 3.4) and station protection, along with the short snap up, short base pay as of Aug 2018, and the no 2018 raise will be the biggest issues if this is voted down.
Maybe, and hopefully, some MDW guys will start to chime in and discuss how their meetings went. Perhaps they have already started discussing on FB by now...

Careful what you say. You might upset someone.

 

[B737 driver]

Careful what you say. You might upset someone.

If you are referring to me, people just need to vote and where it falls it falls. Then we will see where it goes from there. If we turn it down we just play into the company's hand of saving money. Until the negotiating committee figures out what their next move is. If you want to know how Midway meeting came out go check out Local 4 Facebook page.

 

[dgaf]

No prob. dgaf.
And your right, hangars are needed for certain work being performed. UPS will rent hangar spaces if at an airport that they don't have their own hangars. Another big reason UPS uses hangars for are for when gear swings are required after performing certain maint.
I have also heard that they run the "prison inmates" (lol) real hard in their loading stations where the loaders load all the 18 wheelers and delivery trucks where management uses stopwatches to time the loads. If you are not within the parameters you are removed, relocated, or even fired. Sad, but true. My son has worked for both UPS and FedEx loading stations and you work non stop until all trucks are loaded and out of there, then you get the long awaited "long" breaks. Pretty sure it's the same with the aircraft loaders too.
You are also correct about the difference in scope language. However, we are all fully responsible for anything that happens with these aircraft, passengers, flight crews as well as human life on the ground, if anything goes wrong until the aircraft is retired, destroyed, or no longer in service. Even if these aircraft change air carriers, our sign offs follow them to the bone yard. In other words, no matter if we work freighters or passenger airliners we have the same, if not a little more with passenger aircraft, responsibility...
dgaf, I still am on the fence as far as which way I will vote. I am waiting for final decision to be made after all the RS's are done from both union and co. Once I have all my info I will vote accordingly as I se fit for me, my family and our futures. Good luck to you and yours on this contract offer. At this point I'm like most here. I would be fine if it gets voted down and I would be fine if it gets voted in. I will not shame anyone for the way they vote. Whatever the turn out it will be what the majority wants, and I will respect whatever that is and move on.
Great talking with you, have a good one...

No problem SWAMT. I like you am riding the fence on this. I still want to see and hear the road show myself, but one of my concerns is the economics, and I don't mean in the TA. I've brought this up before, and tomorrow ought to be interesting with earnings coming out. I am not looking forward to that, with EPS estimated between 1.20-1.35 with my guess closer to the bottom end of that if not a miss entirely. YOY growth and PRASM down compared to last year, fuel costs up, not to mention all the fan blade expenses and other out of pocket nonsense.
American announced a couple weeks back and now I read this from Jet Blue.....
https://www.businessinsider.com/jetblue-announces-layoffs-buyouts-restructuring-2018-7

 

[B737 driver]

No problem SWAMT. I like you am riding the fence on this. I still want to see and hear the road show myself, but one of my concerns is the economics, and I don't mean in the TA. I've brought this up before, and tomorrow ought to be interesting with earnings coming out. I am not looking forward to that, with EPS estimated between 1.20-1.35 with my guess closer to the bottom end of that if not a miss entirely. YOY growth and PRASM down compared to last year, fuel costs up, not to mention all the fan blade expenses and other out of pocket nonsense.
American announced a couple weeks back and now I read this from Jet Blue.....
https://www.businessinsider.com/jetblue-announces-layoffs-buyouts-restructuring-2018-7

Jet Blue lost $120 million. We are on the , top of the economic cycle. We won't lose money we will just show a smaller profit. So why people want to say no , there is a consequence to delays.

 

[swamt]

No problem SWAMT. I like you am riding the fence on this. I still want to see and hear the road show myself, but one of my concerns is the economics, and I don't mean in the TA. I've brought this up before, and tomorrow ought to be interesting with earnings coming out. I am not looking forward to that, with EPS estimated between 1.20-1.35 with my guess closer to the bottom end of that if not a miss entirely. YOY growth and PRASM down compared to last year, fuel costs up, not to mention all the fan blade expenses and other out of pocket nonsense.
American announced a couple weeks back and now I read this from Jet Blue.....
https://www.businessinsider.com/jetblue-announces-layoffs-buyouts-restructuring-2018-7

Well dgaf, you hit that one on the head. We came in at 1.27, with a 743 million profit. Co. saying we lost about 100 million over the blade fiasco and freeze in advertisements.
I was concerned too with the economics coming in this Q2 reporting. However, it was quite a bit better than what I was expecting. Heck we even topped AA's Q profit. They made 11.56 billion in earnings but only reported a 550 plus million for Q2. So I was pretty happy with the 3/4 billion profit we reported. Co. also saying we will make it up in the Q3.
dgaf, I'm not so sure the mediator will put us on ice. I am thinking they still need to get Hawaii up and selling by end of year, so I am thinking the co. will want to settle ASAP in order to keep that on track as promised by co. Plus with all the investigations going on from the FAA, DOT and others.
I keep asking myself, is the current offer reasonable with the 6 year pay freeze and then the added 5 year contract? So for 11 years, is 12.80 a reasonable or acceptable offer?? That's 1.16 per year. I'm thinking the total should be around 16.5 for the course of the 11 years.
The longer we wait the more no votes I am hearing and now I am leaning more so towards. But as promised, I will still give the RS's a fair shake and ask a lot of questions on going forward, but I will not allow the co. scare tactics of being put on ice sway my vote either way. My opinion is, we've held out this long for full retro, scope and etops why not finish this thing out with being made whole with a true 3% for each and every year of the 6 years past (compounded) and the outgoing years including the final year like we had last contract, which is another concession from the last contract.
Pretty sure with the UPS AIP coming out soon, the AS rejection of their T/A, seems we are being left a little behind.
It will be totally up to the co. but they can settle easily if this is voted down. If they choose to put it on ice (of course they will blame the mediator) then it will just show how they disrespect our group of Southwest Airlines employees that they continually say they always take care of. It time for them to show us and prove that they really do care for the employees...