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10-K Usairways Group


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38 replies to this topic

#25
BoeingBoy

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I thought I was more clear that I was talking about the mergers and consolidations of the post 9/11 era. So yes mergers occurred long before Parker, but rarely in the context of "consolidation" and "capacity constraint" that Doug was championing even before he joined AWA.

Nope, the earliest mergers were about consolidation. All you do is pick a period where HP was the among the first to merge. Make it this century and Doug is not the first - AA/TWA, AF/KLM. Even ATA, which Parker tried unsuccessfully to buy, was picked up by WN. Parker's "innovation" was attempting to merge with the other airline was in bankruptcy, which is nothing more than his "do it on the cheap" way of doing business - be it employees, mergers, airplanes, whatever. How often has he said US has had problems finding replacement 757's "at the right price" (lower than others will pay). How often has he said that US can't pay employees what the other carriers can.

Jim
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Silver: No question the [9th] embraced the issue that there was harm to the West Pilots.

#26
700UW

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ATA was not picked up by WN, they went out of business in bankruptcy.

On April 2, 2008, ATA filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. ATA then announced it was ceasing all services, effective 4:00 AM EDT, Thursday April 3, 2008 citing the unexpected loss of a major contract for its military charter business, as a subcontractor of FedEx Express, along with recent increases in jet fuel prices. Red-eye flights in the air at the time of the announcement proceeded to their destinations. Flight 4586 from Honolulu to Phoenix was the last ATA flight, departing almost 2 hours late at 12:10am (HST) arriving April 3, 2008 at 8:48am (MST).

Southwest Airlines owns and retains all ownership of the operating certificate and all assets held by ATA Airlines including trademarks, logos, etc. These were purchased for $7.5 million by Southwest while ATA was operating under bankruptcy protection.


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#27
BoeingBoy

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Your quote contradicts your statement, 700. You should at least get your story straight before telling someone they're wrong. Did WN acquire the assets of ATA? Yes. Was ATA in bankruptcy at the time? Yes, I didn't say they weren't. All I said was that WN acquired ATA, which is what happened.

Jim
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Silver: No question the [9th] embraced the issue that there was harm to the West Pilots.

#28
700UW

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Did they buy planes?

Did they merge?

Is WN flying ATA's routes with their equipment and employees?

Nope ATA went out of business and WN picked up what was left after everything was gone.
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#29
CallawayGolf

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Nope, the earliest mergers were about consolidation. All you do is pick a period where HP was the among the first to merge. Make it this century and Doug is not the first - AA/TWA, AF/KLM. Even ATA, which Parker tried unsuccessfully to buy, was picked up by WN. Parker's "innovation" was attempting to merge with the other airline was in bankruptcy, which is nothing more than his "do it on the cheap" way of doing business - be it employees, mergers, airplanes, whatever. How often has he said US has had problems finding replacement 757's "at the right price" (lower than others will pay). How often has he said that US can't pay employees what the other carriers can.

Jim

You are the industry and historical expert so I will defer to you on those matters. However, as far a picking a period, I was selecting a time period when Doug was CEO and was in a position to pursue a merger. The fact that he was in that position for ten days prior to 9/11 also seems significant since that changed a lot of factors in the industry in regards to profitability and solvency concerns for most of the majors.

I don't archive articles, but I do remember reading some national news stories back in 2005 which were quoting industry sources (something like the Boyd Group, but I could be wrong) that went into great detail about how Doug was the only airline executive that was championing consolidation. I also remember quotes from Franke about how Doug talked about the need for consolidation in his interview to come to AWA and how Franke viewed Doug as having remarkable insight into what the industry needed to do to gain long-term profitability and sustainability. This was all couched in the concept that Doug was not at all like other CEOs and he had a strong resolve to reduce seats and gain pricing power that seemed absent from his peers at the time. Now the article(s) may have just been a PR piece, but I do recall reading those things back then.

Again, if I recall correctly, one of the big objections to the US/DL takeover was that there was too much overlap in the routes for certain people's comfort. Overlap means consolidation options and pricing power. Now compare that to the limited overlap at DL/NW or UA/CO and tell me again how all CEOs strive for consolidation rather than expanded marketshare. If you are focused on consolidation you seek overlap. If you seek marketshare you seek complimentary routes, right? IMO consolidation of corporate headquarters and changing a hub or two into a focus city is a far cry from substantially reducing the number of seats flying between city pairs throughout the network.
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#30
BoeingBoy

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Did they buy planes?

Did they merge?

Is WN flying ATA's routes with their equipment and employees?

Nope ATA went out of business and WN picked up what was left after everything was gone.

Good grief. Ever hear of chapter 7? How in the world was anything left to buy after everything was gone? Wouldn't everything being gone mean that there was nothing to buy? Here is the quote you posted:

Southwest Airlines owns and retains all ownership of the operating certificate and all assets held by ATA Airlines including trademarks, logos, etc. These were purchased for $7.5 million by Southwest while ATA was operating under bankruptcy protection.


Jim
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Silver: No question the [9th] embraced the issue that there was harm to the West Pilots.

#31
SparrowHawk

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IIRC, didn't US end up with 2 or 3 757's from ATA?
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#32
BoeingBoy

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IIRC, didn't US end up with 2 or 3 757's from ATA?

Indirectly, 3 of them. But they were operated by another carrier between ATA and US. I think that all or nearly all of ATA's planes were leased but could be wrong. So they were leased to someone else after ATA, then finally leased to US when the other carrier's leases expired. Really, all WN wanted was the MDW gates but since ATA was in chapter 7 bankruptcy (or it may have been prior to converting from 11 too 7) they got everything cheap.

Jim
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Silver: No question the [9th] embraced the issue that there was harm to the West Pilots.

#33
SparrowHawk

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Indirectly, 3 of them. But they were operated by another carrier between ATA and US. I think that all or nearly all of ATA's planes were leased but could be wrong. So they were leased to someone else after ATA, then finally leased to US when the other carrier's leases expired. Really, all WN wanted was the MDW gates but since ATA was in chapter 7 bankruptcy (or it may have been prior to converting from 11 too 7) they got everything cheap.

Jim


They did some code sharing with ATA to Hawaii as well.
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Truth Is Treason In The Empire of Lies

#34
BoeingBoy

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They did some code sharing with ATA to Hawaii as well.

HP? I'll take your word for it, but it would explain the start of HP's Hawaiian service in 2004 - lose the code-share carrier so start their own.

Jim
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Silver: No question the [9th] embraced the issue that there was harm to the West Pilots.

#35
SparrowHawk

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HP? I'll take your word for it, but it would explain the start of HP's Hawaiian service in 2004 - lose the code-share carrier so start their own.

Jim


No ATA and WN

HP/US has a code share with Hawaiian to this very day IIRC. No I'm gonna go look :D
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#36
BoeingBoy

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I'm having a hard time figuring out what this

They did some code sharing with ATA to Hawaii as well.

has to do with this

No ATA and WN

HP/US has a code share with Hawaiian to this very day IIRC. No I'm gonna go look :D


I thought you meant that pre-merger HP code-shared with HA from the mainland to/from HI. They did with ATA, and tried to buy ATA when it was in bankruptcy but were outbid by WN. That ended the code-share but pre-merger HP started HI service about the same time or not long after not getting ATA.

I do think that post-merger US code-shares with HA on inter-island flights. I don't remember pre-merger US code-sharing with HA to/from HI, but with *A partner UA they didn't need to - but I could definitely be wrong.

Jim
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Silver: No question the [9th] embraced the issue that there was harm to the West Pilots.




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