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Delta Air Lines to Build Heavy Maintenance Facility in Queretaro, Mexico

Joint with Aeromexico MRO Overhaul Foreign labor lower maintenance costs outsource

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#109
WorldTraveler

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no, it didn't go over my head.

I simply do not agree to sit by quietly when people make factually incorrect statements.

You and anyone else are free to post your counter points if you would like, but as soon as the post is live, it is free reign for anyone's comment.
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#110
Glenn Quagmire

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I see. You are the conversation ender at dinner parties. And damn proud of it.


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Two things airline employees dislike the most: 1) Change 2) The way things are.


#111
WorldTraveler

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This is an anonymous chat forum, not a dinner party. I don't even know if Overspeed is still online. There is no requirement for me to wait for a response from him.

I waited hours for a response from Dawg the other day and in the meantime the conversation moved on. that is the nature of online chat forums.

The question remains for someone to show me - or more significantly DL mechanics - that they are worse off than their peers. At best, I see that UA mechanics make more but there is no accounting for the fact that UA employees are much more heavily based in higher cost cities than DL employees.
UA outsources more maintenance than DL which truly has to be a consideration of who is doing better.

I assert that DL insources far more revenue than UA - and if Speed wants to show me data to show that UA tops $500M in insourcing revenue per year, I'll admit I'm wrong and we'll go from there.

Even if UA mechanics do better than DL's adjusted for location etc, the fact remains that DL is able to find sufficient people to do the job and those mechanics have not chosen to push for a union in a move that MIGHT succeed at pushing their wages up.

If DL employees are doing so poorly, they don't seem to know it or at least don't have any desire to choose a union to represent them which would be the answer most of the participants in this conversation would recommend to solve the "problem" which apparently many DL employees do not even see exists.
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#112
topDawg

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Dawg and Kev,
If the measurement of success in your eyes regarding outsourcing/insourcing is regaining of jobs that have already been lost, then you will probably be permanently disappointed. DL MAY bring back some of those jobs - but it would be more than a risk for me to even suggest they will bring back work that has been previously outsourced - and perhaps an unattainable goal for you to believe that DL should bring that work back in-house.

And once again I will ask you how much outsourced work at DL's competitors has returned?god this is getting old....Delta isn't growing its in sourcing and in most cases, post BK, The big three outsource less. So no AA isn't bringing any work back in, but still do less out, and will do less out after BK, than Delta does now. If DL is no worse off, then it begs the question as to what disadvantage DL employees have, esp. since they started at a higher base on in-house than other departments.

Is it possible that DL could bring HMV work back? possible... but probably mostly limited by facilities. horse s**t excuse. How about quit giving up bays in places like MSP and stop building hangar in f$@king Mexico.
Is it possible that DL could bring back ACS jobs? In cities where DL's competitive position is relatively set, much more likely - as long as there is an acceptance that a high percentage of those jobs might be RRs or part-time... because that is the cost equvalent in-house employee to outsouced work. but they aren't even doing that, as Kev said, no new cities are being added. Delta has huge cities that are DGS. I believe UA/AA/US and WN would all have ML(true ML not RR) below wing in a lot of places delta has DGS. I do not blame this totally on Delta(just like I don't blame this Mexico clusterf**k on Delta). At some point the (somewhat stupid) employees are going to have to wake up and figure out that they are getting screwed. Organize in a fairly good union and shut it down......or less likely, some non-worthless CEO will come in and make Delta Delta. Its truly a slap in the fact the way Richard talks about Mr. Woolman. If he was alive today he would be putting so much foot to ass at the GO it wouldn't be funny.

But the bigger issue which I will ask again is how many CURRENT/EXISTING FT employees have lost their job - not been asked to transfer to another work area, city, etc. LOST their job. If you answer more than 1, as in due to layoffs - not performance related terminations, I want examples. but that isn't all that can be looked at. How many employees lost there jobs not to have them replaced by ML? Heck TechOps would be like 20-25,000 strong if the AMFA hadn't been screwed over like they did.

If you want to show that DL has ended jobs in one work area (such as airframe overhauls) as evidence that they are increasing outsourcing, then you are missing the point that DL is finding other places for DL employees to work - and they are shifting resources based on where they can best maximize profits- which is what profit-motivated companies do. It is no different than DL making a decision to cancel a TATL route and use the aircraft on a transcontinental route. but thats just it....Delta hasn't really relocated people. They by them out and don't back fill them....Or they move them and have DGS come in like they just did in the hangar.

You can also argue that one employee group - maybe even DL mechanics are not paid as well as their peers at other airlines... and I won't argue that might be true. But if other carriers such as UA mechanics outsource a higher percentage of work, then the higher INDIVIDUAL salaries are offset by fewer total jobs...logic that a labor unions would and have used in negotiations. And it also doesn't change that UA's maintenance operations are in much higher cost parts of the US. but I don't care. lol. You think i care about cost? I don't. I stopped caring about cost when Delta paid 2 billion dollars for Comair......want to know how that ended up? I am so over hearing about (mis)management screw ups then them coming to the employees to fix the cost problems. I also hate hearing about cost when they make 1+ BILLION in a year. GMAFB

If DL mechanics make less than UA mechanics in individual compensation, the difference between pilots at the two airlines is MUCH higher. DL pilot compensation surpasses UA pilot compensation by more than 25% - and movement on finalizing an agreement between UA/CO ALPA and UA mgmt has stalled, undoubtedly in part because UA mgmt wants to see what will happen w/ AA and its pilots. not my labor group. It's ALPAs job to worry about pilots.....I care about MX and only MX. DALPA pilots could get 1$ an hour for all I care.

And, as unjust as it may be to you two and your work areas, DL has apparently considered the pilots more strategic in allowing the company to do what it needs to do strategically - and the reason is not just because the pilots at DL are unionized. They only kiss the pilots butt because they don't want a UA/HP or a UA/CO. DL's non-contract personnel are paid on average - as a group - comparable to or better than employees at other network carriers - AND those other carriers' non-pilot personnel are not any more effective in limiting scope. huh? TWU, not the APA, had(has?) an ASM cap on American Eagle/conx. I also believe the NW ramp had some kind of cap on big RJ flying.

Kev- would the IAM have succeeded in obtaining large RJ scope language if ALPA had not already obtained it - or NW was willing to give it ALPA concurrently? Is there any situation where non-pilot personnel have been able to enforced more strict scope language w/o comparable language for pilots?

I'm not saying it is fair, but I think the 800 pound beast in the room is that pilots DO control scope at most US airlines. Considering that DL ground personnel do work flights regardless of the aircraft type - DL or DCI - scope language for ground personnel has more to do with locations than aircraft types. They don't in every city.

----

Spectator is right. My participation on aviation chat forums has always been a mental exercise in debate that is apersonal and disconnected from any personal gains/losses to the airline industry. It is also why I do not discuss or debate any other issues such as religion or politics on here because those are not the reasons I participate on this forum.
Attempts to argue that I have something to gain/lose based on my positions are wrong.

Whether some people view their participation here in the same way or not, I can debate someone's IDEAS and POSITIONS and be capable of sitting down with them for a beer and burrito, not even considering the issue we just debated. It is no different than realizing that there are prosecuting and defense attorneys who go to court and argue against each other and then end the day on the golf course.

Attempts to connect my IDEAS to the people with whom I debate is an error. I respect people on the basis of who they are as people. The nameless entity on this forum does not come close to representing any person or who they are as people.

For the record both personally and for WT the nameless entity on this forum, I want you as DL employees and every other American to achieve the most personally and professionally as you possibly can.


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#113
topDawg

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The bay 4 HMV took a real long time. The hold up was paperwork and the Feds signing off on it. We only did it in house because we were the only ones that were willing to do it due to the headaches. For us it was a good deal. We paid for the HMV and got a pretty good monthly lease which didn't kick it until it flew. I think the HMV cost were right where they thought it would be.
I knew it got hung up due to paper work.
As far as the T7 and 737 PSV's. The 7's are done and the latest round of 737 PSV's are being done in IND by AAR. We really don't have the dock space to do this round. That is why they are contracted out. The check consists of a full cabin gut job that takes like three weeks. Most other PSV's take five to seven days. If we still had the TPA or DFW bays it could happen in house. I don't see us adding any bay space in the US. The cost, all of them, not just payroll are too high.

I don't see how it couldn't be done if they did something outside of ATL. I can't believe that DTW or MSP couldn't be geared up for some kind of PSV work (outside of the 88s done in MSP).
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#114
topDawg

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We have hired off the street for AMTs in the past couple of years for a lot of stations, including ATL. Most have been back fill to replace retierments. I have not seen an increase in ASM positions in the hangar. Most bays have 6-8 guys spread over all three shifts and weekend crews. The increase might have been in the deadicated cabin condition crews. Leads are AMTs with a few other AMTs but most are ASM. Many of the ASMs are also going to school to get their a&p and they get looked at first before we hire off the street.


They have been doing some test ASM stuff in the engine shop (according to David G.).
but for the hangar I think 206 is short a bunch of guys.....and most of the ASM jobs I have seen are going to 426 and wheel and brake.
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#115
topDawg

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Speed,
Glad you jumped into the topic and glad you cited the DOT stats – which is precisely what I have cited numerous times.
Let’s start w/ your observation – a correct one – that DL’s outsourcing jumped dramatically in 2010 and 2011. Two things occurred in 2010 that dramatically affected DL’s maintenance numbers and neither you or anyone else factors them into the discussion.

The DL/NW merger occurred and all of PMNW’s maintenance operations showed up as DL’s in 2010. Remember that NW gutted its in-house maintenance capabilities with the AMFA strike and lockout which is fully reflected in the amount of outsourcing they did – which peaked at more than 70% before DL took over NW. NW outsourced most of its maintenance – probably at above average rates since they moved a huge amount of maintenance outside of the company in a short period of time – and never resolved the situation before the merger. Apparently much of the PMNW fleet (esp. the Airbus) is still outsourced, if I am correct – because DL simply does not have the space to accommodate all of NW’s outsourced fleet. and they are simply building the space to fix that in mexico. To bad.... I see tons of places for hangars in Atlanta.

DL right-sized its maintenance operation during BK to operate at 25% outsourced maintenance on its own fleet – which it did immediately post BK. But when the merger occurred, DL could not accommodate NW’s maintenance operation in-house using DL’s post-BK maintenance structure. sure they could. Bring in a 747 and we can HMV it. Promise. Just give us the space. (such as over by 10/28 or in the south cargo area....just an idea)

It is thus ironic that the PMNW employees are the ones who want to find fault w/ DL’s maintenance operation while PMDL maintenance employees note that DL is using its facilities and employees to their maximum potential and keeping work in-house to the greatest degree possible using the vast majority of licensed mechanics. The union proponents here even go so far as acknowledge the hatred that NW mgmt had for AMFA but mistakenly draw the conclusion that DL is attempting to or could do the same thing to DL employees as it did to NW’s union-represented workforce when the facts clearly say the opposite. im sorry....did i just get called PMNW? I hope your talking about Kev.....
and yes....facts say the opp. THEY ARE BUILDING A FRIGGIN HANGAR IN MEXICO TO DO DELTA WORK!!!!!!!!!!

All of these calculations that others bring in about the amount of outsourcing at various airlines fail to consider the level of insourcing that DL Tech Ops does. DL has publicly said in SEC filings that DL Tech Ops generates $600M+ in revenue. Subtract that value from what DL spends on outsourcing and DL’s net outsourcing comes to about 15% - far lower than any other US airline. That is a pretty remarkable number considering that DL hasn’t added in any heavy maintenance capabilities since the merger to replace what NW gutted.
nope....sorry. you can't calm LAN 767s as Delta work. How about this, I'll take the LAN work and Delta work....hell both of the above will be done in Mexico soon anyways.
But yet another factor that drives DL’s larger outsourcing numbers in the last two years is the huge amount of aircraft mods DL is doing, driven by their intention to keep and acquire older aircraft instead of buying as many newer aircraft as their peers. want to point out the FAR that says TechOps can't do mods? DL is in the midst of a huge spike in maintenance activity as it brings the combined fleet up to a common, higher standard and as it brings in used aircraft like the M90 that are not up to DL standards. When you factor in DL’s mod activity as well as its acquisition of used aircraft and put DL on a comparable basis against other carriers, DL’s level of outsourcing is about 10% - vastly different from any other airline and vastly different from the 40% number that shows up (accurately but w/o any adjustments/considerations) in government documents. so wait...Delta shouldn't have to count the M90/767/744 mods because....why? What a bunch of horse crap. Here is an idea...do the work in the US, with Delta ML employees and then they don't have to call it outsourcing. Those new aircraft at other airlines show up on the balance sheet as debt while DL is buying many used aircraft with cash it is generating today. DL has noted that its reduction in debt over the past 2 years continuing thru next year will have reduced interest costs by $500M per year. Reduced debt means less threat to employees from excessive costs. And, for now, DL is the only network carrier that is paying for frozen pensions – which eat up $500M or more in cash per year. Other airlines ditched their pensions completely. all pointless PR. thanks. Delta should be paying you for the spin.

You mention TAESL and you are right that AA does insourcing as well – but in a joint venture in which RR gets a chunk of the profits. But TAESL is far smaller than DL Tech Ops – even the engine overhaul component – and TAESL does a significant amount of work on AA engines which isn’t surprising since AA is one of the largest Rolls-Royce operators in the Americas. AA’s net insourcing via TAESL is far smaller than DL Tech Ops since all Tech Ops insourcing is truly work from airlines other than DL. way to miss the point. the point on TAESL was it gets counted to the gov. as outsourcing.....when it really isn't because TAESL employees are American TWU employees.

Look at the FAs and pilots as yet another example where the company gained flexibility which brought jobs back to the US and to mainline DL employees.

NW by virtue of its labor contract used non-FA language agents onboard, most of whom were not US-based but who also were not factored into the FA staffing levels. As soon as the representation issues were resolved, DL staffed all flights which operate to/from the US w/ US based FAs using FAs who already had language capabilities – often putting more language FAs on the flights than existed with NW. DL gained flexibility, lowered costs, increased customer service, and provided more opportunities to US based FAs.
The pilots – through a union – have allowed the addition of large RJs but in the process have gained more flying overall by DL pilots as overall RJ flying is being reduced(that would have been reduced without said contract FAIL with ALPA) , allowed DL to add the 717 to the fleet,(Which could have been done without the contract....again ALPA FAIL) and gained pay raises by allowing the company to increase efficiency by allowing DL to largely staff the 717s with surplus pilots which DL has carried on the payroll since the merger – at a cost of several hundred million dollars per year.wooohooo more work and less pilots. Victory. god ALPA is so terrible.

Other airline pilot unions don’t like that DALPA has given up scope which historically has resulted in lost jobs- UA parked its fleet of 737-500s when it gained the ability to fly 70 seaters. Obviously, DL sees its relationship with its pilots differently and is willing to share what it gains in flexibility and reduced costs where other carriers use that flexibility to lay off employees. and Delta parked over 50 727s, nearly 100 732/733 and tons of DC9s with the addition of RJs. Its cute how you leave that out.
Yes, DL has used its flexibility to do things which some other airline unions would not allow – but it has resulted in gains for DL employees as DL becomes more efficient. less ML work, less time off, higher heath care, less pay, etc. Yeah....truly winning.

But the question remains if DL employees are better off than their peers and on that basis, the answer is indeed that DL employees are financially better off and more of them are employed than at other airlines, regardless of whether they have as much “control” over their seniority as at other airlines. horse poo

Apparently DL employees consider that increased control immaterial or at least not significant enough to cause them to hire a union. no....they don't vote one in because 1) Delta scares them. 2) they are still thinking its 20 years ago.


oh and WT. If you want to make comparisons between employees....go to each groups union web pages. You can compare the contract. I'm not doing it for you. (even though I already have)
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#116
topDawg

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This is an anonymous chat forum, not a dinner party. I don't even know if Overspeed is still online. There is no requirement for me to wait for a response from him.

I waited hours for a response from Dawg the other day and in the meantime the conversation moved on. that is the nature of online chat forums.and some people don't/cant get on ever min of ever day.

The question remains for someone to show me - or more significantly DL mechanics - that they are worse off than their peers. At best, I see that UA mechanics make more but there is no accounting for the fact that UA employees are much more heavily based in higher cost cities than DL employees.
I have already told you, they get 7 weeks of vacation to Delta 4. They get (I think) an extra week of sick time. I think they have 8 holidays to Delta's 10. They have 3% lower heath care cost. (20% to 23%). They get a 401K match that is 2% higher and still get a pension from the government. They make 200 more a month after union dues. They have SCOPE which says all heavy work most be done on new aircraft types unless approved by the union and protection for the SFO guys if they sell the base. Also they do a good bit more work in house when counting CO who, I believe, does C-checks on there own 737/757/767/777 aircraft.
UA outsources more maintenance than DL which truly has to be a consideration of who is doing better.

I assert that DL insources far more revenue than UA - and if Speed wants to show me data to show that UA tops $500M in insourcing revenue per year, I'll admit I'm wrong and we'll go from there. Delta only gets that because of its low wage employees. If TechOps had all of the above they likely would have to do all of Delta's MX in house just to keep cost low enough to bring in other work. (theory being it would be cheaper to do Delta 767 HMVs plus the LAN 767 HMVs vs just LAN 767 HMVs.)

Even if UA mechanics do better than DL's adjusted for location etc, the fact remains that DL is able to find sufficient people to do the job and those mechanics have not chosen to push for a union in a move that MIGHT succeed at pushing their wages up. no you don't get to use cost of location. Delta/NW has employees in all of the places UA does....and at one point had hangars in all of the cities save Denver, San Fran, MCO and Newark. Delta/NW has had hangars in LA, WAS(DCA), IAH, CHI, plus of course, lost bays in MSP, DLH, DWH, ATL and TPA.

If DL employees are doing so poorly, they don't seem to know it or at least don't have any desire to choose a union to represent them which would be the answer most of the participants in this conversation would recommend to solve the "problem" which apparently many DL employees do not even see exists.no its because of a few things. 1) Delta keeps its large bases in Atlanta where the south is more anti-union. 2) they treat said ATL employees better(such as they may let the mid-night shift guys leave work at 2AM....trade that work more time off and more work though) 3) they still have a lot of old a holes that don't care about the future or think that they will get it back like they did 30 years ago. 4) fear. Delta points out Union failures....even if the card are stacked against them. (AMFA) 5) stupidity. A good bit of people they hire now look at it as a job. This is a general problem the airlines are having. less and less airlines familys are staying that way because its not worth it. Why risk my life and well being signing my name on something fixed in mexico only for it to pull a valuejet or Qantas?


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#117
Airlinelifer

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YouTube George Carlin's "American Dream"


#118
Kev3188

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Good points all, Dawg. Too bad they run counter to the narrative the company prefers...

P.S. Not for nothing, but NW also had a small hangar in CMH.
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Obstacles make you clever.

#119
WorldTraveler

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See the link above to MIT’s airline data project. It explicitly uses airline provided data to the US government to calculate outsourcing percentages. If you want to argue with that data, then there is likely no amount of data that will convince you of the truth if it runs counter to what you want to believe. The issue of outsourcing is quantifiable; either there are facts to support your position or there are not.
The same thing applies to insourcing. If you are convinced that someone else – UA – does more insourcing than DL, then find the facts to support it. If they aren’t there, you are wrong. It is a factual item and not an opinion – it is that simple.

DL’s goal is not and never has been to preserve FUTURE jobs. That is what unions have tried to do and have failed miserably. DL’s goal plain and simple is to protect the jobs of existing employees and on that basis they have done a better job than any other network airline. That is an objective fact. Continuing to push for a standard that unions have not attained and which DL does not even see as a goal is one reason why you have failed to convince anyone of the validity of your position.

“somewhat stupid employees”…. Ok, let it out… just let it rip. They aren’t just somewhat stupid in your mind. I KNEW we would get to this point eventually and I’m said glad you finally admitted it. DL employees are in fact intelligent enough to choose a future that will result in success – more so than NWA’s AMFA-represented mechanics.

For four years, this whole debate has been a cultural issue more than anything else. There are a relatively small handful of PMNW people who have tried to perpetuate the pro-union NW mindset which was obviously incompatible with DL’s culture from the minute the merger was announced – and for years before if you believe that the DL-NW merger was in the cards well before the 2008 announcement. Yep, DL has chosen not to reopen former NW hangars – the ones that were shuttered by NW’s lockout of AMFA. You act surprised – really bitter – that DL isn’t going to engage in a game that allows you to play. You seem to forget – or be unable to connect – with the reality that the northern US has lost millions of jobs because US companies including the steel and auto industries - have moved jobs away from locations where their business has been negatively impacted by labor unions for decades. Companies control where they hire people. Foreign automakers who are building plants are doing it in the US south – and the reason should come as no surprise to you.

NW mgmt and its board apparently believed it was no longer worth fighting with labor so decided to sell out – with very few strings attached – to a company that had and still has a much better relationship with labor than other airlines. In a free market, resources are deployed where there is the greatest expected return on the investment. Without picking sides, it is absolutely accurate to say that labor disputes in the airline industry have destroyed enormous amounts of capital.

BTW, DL did not take over any of Pan Am’s maintenance facilities, IIRC.

Holding onto a labor-mgmt system that hasn’t worked but which also is not even desired by many Americans shows why the labor movement is broken – and faces even further, more severe erosion as it is attacked in the public worker sector.
Belittling your coworkers who don’t agree with your viewpoints is a guarantee that you will be marginalized and your objectives will not be achieved – assuming you are actually trying to advance the union cause and are not here just to bellyache.
DL’s maintenance facilities in ATL are busy. And they do more work in-house than UA. Despite these great scope provisions which UA mechanics have, UA sends more of their work out than DL does.

Quit denying what works while touting something that clearly doesn’t – you shouldn’t be surprised that your coworkers at DL are smart enough to know the difference.
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#120
Kev3188

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The distilled version: Don't rock the boat... Trust your leaders... Everyone knows what's best for you... You're lucky to have a job...Aspire only to mediocrity..

BTW, pretty sure Dawg is PMDL, so the "handful of PMNW employees" line doesn't apply.

And if by "handful of PMNW" you actually meant "1000's of employees from the combined group are advocating for representation," you're correct...
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Obstacles make you clever.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Joint with Aeromexico, MRO, Overhaul, Foreign labor, lower maintenance costs, outsource

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