65 MPG and we cannot get it

C

Cosworth

Guest
If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor, known widely for lumbering gas hogs.

This is what should be sold HERE!!!


It's cute and it makes 65MPG. Why the hell is it not even being offered here? It's made by a company that is asking me along with all the other tax payers to bail their sorry asses out to the tune of $25-$50 billion dollars. As far as I am concerned, they can kiss my ass.

Take the tax off of diesel, tax the hell out of gas, increase the CAFE requirements and voila, a great market for fuel efficient cars in a diesel friendly country. Gee, you think the auto makes and oil companies have anything to do with this?
 
Well your Green friendly congress has made mandates for the auto makers here in the USA.

I heard Ford-GM and Chrysler make money everywhere in the world except here.

Why not let automakers make cars for the market instead of being dictated by government?
 
MB, VW are making diesels for the US market. Honda will be bringing one over. The diesels are as green or greener than the gas counter parts. According to the article, it has nothing to do with government restrictions but with buyers who do not want to give the diesels a try and get rid of their SUV's. Give the US a cost incentive to buy them and they will.
 
If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor, known widely for lumbering gas hogs.

This is what should be sold HERE!!!


It's cute and it makes 65MPG. Why the hell is it not even being offered here? It's made by a company that is asking me along with all the other tax payers to bail their sorry asses out to the tune of $25-$50 billion dollars. As far as I am concerned, they can kiss my ass.

Take the tax off of diesel, tax the hell out of gas, increase the CAFE requirements and voila, a great market for fuel efficient cars in a diesel friendly country. Gee, you think the auto makes and oil companies have anything to do with this?

What will taxing the hell out of gas accomplish other than to make it harder on the people who can least afford it? Do you think those same people are going to run out and buy a $24000 Fiesta ECOnetic? For the average buyer that's a lot of money for a succompact.

It's going to take more than just lowering the taxes, which the US governemt should do, on diesel to make this car more attractive to the average buyer. Getting the price down for one. Some of the issues are beyond Fords control. Like the current excahnge rate. Then of course the attitudes towards diesel in the US.
 
MB, VW are making diesels for the US market. Honda will be bringing one over. The diesels are as green or greener than the gas counter parts. According to the article, it has nothing to do with government restrictions but with buyers who do not want to give the diesels a try and get rid of their SUV's. Give the US a cost incentive to buy them and they will.

Not sure if CA law has changed recently. But last time I tried to buy a 'new' diesel, CA does not allow it.
Funny thing is; I can buy a 'used' diesel either in state or out of state (with some restrictions).
Some laws are nutty! :wacko:

:p
 
The "Bluetec" MB Diesel is 50 state legal. The new VW's are also 50 state legal. Diesel technology has come quite a long way and are as clean or cleaner than gasers.


As for the price. I do not believe it. They could manufacture the engines in MX of CA where their other plants are and I do not believe they could not sell it for the same price as the rest of their econo cars. If they want to survive, they need to start thinking ahead.

As for taxing gas, it needs to be done in conjunction with increasing public transportation, sunsidies for purchasing fuel efficient cars to name a few things. If we do not starting weening our selves off of fossil fuel, we are going to be in a lot of trouble in the future
 
The "Bluetec" MB Diesel is 50 state legal. The new VW's are also 50 state legal. Diesel technology has come quite a long way and are as clean or cleaner than gasers.


As for the price. I do not believe it. They could manufacture the engines in MX of CA where their other plants are and I do not believe they could not sell it for the same price as the rest of their econo cars. If they want to survive, they need to start thinking ahead.

As for taxing gas, it needs to be done in conjunction with increasing public transportation, sunsidies for purchasing fuel efficient cars to name a few things. If we do not starting weening our selves off of fossil fuel, we are going to be in a lot of trouble in the future

Thanks!

What a deal 2008 E320 $50+K :p

B) xUT
 
It's a MB, what do you expect? The VW's are much more affordable. I imagine when Honda comes out with their diesel it will be quite competitive. From what I have read, their system does not require any type of injection system. I works with particulate filters and heat. Leave it to the Japanese.
 
Diesel engines have too many trade offs. They require very complex systems (like BlueTec) to meet stringent emissions requirements and would have to be tested yearly to ensure compliance. Diesel engines get dirtier and dirtier every year they are on the road and keeping them clean requires expensive maintenance that far exceeds the cost savings from better fuel economy achieved.

Europe makes a lot of use of diesels, but their fuel quality is better and their emissions requirements are different...not any more or less strict really...but different. They use diesel primarily because it has traditionally been cheaper per liter and got much better gas mileage. Recently, Diesel in Europe has gotten to be as expensive or, in some cases, more expensive than gasoline, just like here. So now they've got a fuel economy advantage and no cost of fuel advantage. They're about break-even with the extra maintenance involved in diesels as they would be with gasoline.

Diesel costs a lot less to make than gasoline. In the United States, diesel prices are now much higher than gasoline. It's illogical from a "cost" perspective, but in terms of demand, it's spot-on. In the past, it was less. It's a pricing game they play.
 
Diesel engines have too many trade offs. They require very complex systems (like BlueTec) to meet stringent emissions requirements and would have to be tested yearly to ensure compliance. Diesel engines get dirtier and dirtier every year they are on the road and keeping them clean requires expensive maintenance that far exceeds the cost savings from better fuel economy achieved.

No it does not. That is only one of the options. The Honda requires no Bluetec like system. The Honda system is no more complex than the O2 sensor/Cat system of gas engine. Diesels are easier to maintain not harder. Diesels do not require tune-ups like gas engines. There are no plugs to replace or any of the other issues that gas engines face. Where you get the idea that diesels get 'dirtier' the older they get is beyond me. If you have a source on that I would like to see it. I have a 12 yr old diesel and there is nore more soot coming out the tail pipe now than when it was new. Considering the car has 120k on it and we have no nothing to the engine (save routine maintenence) I fail to see how it is more costly. We get over 33mpg on a full size 5 passenger sedan.

Europe makes a lot of use of diesels, but their fuel quality is better and their emissions requirements are different...not any more or less strict really...but different. They use diesel primarily because it has traditionally been cheaper per liter and got much better gas mileage. Recently, Diesel in Europe has gotten to be as expensive or, in some cases, more expensive than gasoline, just like here. So now they've got a fuel economy advantage and no cost of fuel advantage. They're about break-even with the extra maintenance involved in diesels as they would be with gasoline.

Diesel costs a lot less to make than gasoline. In the United States, diesel prices are now much higher than gasoline. It's illogical from a "cost" perspective, but in terms of demand, it's spot-on. In the past, it was less. It's a pricing game they play.

The ULSD diesel that was mandated 2 years ago is now the same fuel that was available in Europe for quite some time. That is why MB, VW and the rest are able to make 50 state legal diesels. The fact that the oil/gas companies are able to rip off the consumers does not negate the benifits of a diesel engine. Diesel engines, specifically MB diesels are know world wide to be virtually bullet proof. In terms of brute strength, longevity and cost per mile to operate, nothing even comes close to a diesel.

I do not know what your experience with diesels is but I have grown up with them.
 
(Pro-diesel blah blah blah)

My husband and I own a landscaping business. We have just shy of thirty vehicles and have had our fair share of diesel motors over the years in our trucks, which have ranged from Isuzu cab-over trucks to Sprinter vans to Chevrolet, Ford, and Dodge pickups. The value never adds up for them which is why we're all-gasoline and planning to stay that way.

Diesel motors have a lot of disadvantages... First of all, to provide sufficient power and torque, they generally require turbocharging. Turbochargers go bad and have to be replaced. Most gas engines don't have them.

With those turbos come exhaust leaks, oil leaks, etc. Turbos are great, but don't hold up in the long-haul, not in a small car/pickup application.

They may not require spark plugs, but to mitigate difficulty starting most of the smaller diesels require GLOW plugs...expensive replacement item that the car has a tough time starting without...not present on a gas motor. If you get an oil leak and the glow plugs get wet with oil, prepare for a heck of a bill at the mechanic fixing everything.

The fuel doesn't work well in cold climates...it freezes well before gasoline and requires expensive additives and/or tank heaters to work in cold weather...again, gas doesn't require that.

Mercedes diesel motors, like any Mercedes product, will be durable if you continue to sink money into them over the years in maintenance. I would never own a Mercedes that wasn't under warranty. I've had a half-dozen Mercedes-Benz products in my life, including a California-legal 1999 E300 Turbo diesel several years back and can tell you that I will never make the mistake of owning one, diesel or gas, that wasn't under warranty. My one diesel car I bought because it was new and got great fuel economy. In the two years I had it, I spent more time in a loaner car than in my Mercedes. Total bill from the dealership to Mercedes for warranty work? $19,000 in two years. The mechanic specifically told my husband and I that "they don't build them like they used to." This "durability" that people speak of when talking about Mercedes ended in the early 1980's. They're a needlessly complex vehicle that is a genuine pleasure to drive and own as long as you don't have to pay for repairs. I currently have a GL550 and consider myself a devoted Mercedes owner. I primarily drive them for the safety of my children. Don't judge me for being in touch with what owning a Mercedes is all about. It's about money, and how much you're going to pump into the dealership or your trusted mechanic. I trade mine in the day they're out of warranty and have done so for years.

All this talk has me a little nostalgic. The best car I ever had was my 1994 E500. That was just a wonderful car to have and was my second Mercedes-Benz product. I do wish I had kept that one and would happily pay the thousands in repair bills to have it around, perhaps to give to my son. C'est la vie but I do miss it.

Most of the diesel "longevity" that people talk about involves heavy trucks with sleeved engines that can be overhauled in the vehicle. I've never seen a light-duty diesel that wasn't a throwaway block or a non-sleeved design. They're not better built than a gasoline engine, really. They're built tougher to deal with the intense vibration and heat from the the engine and turbo but they're not a fundamentally different design from a gas engine other than igniting by compression rather than spart.

I'm not denying the benefits in heavy trucks....I'm saying small car/pickup diesels are just a waste of money and, no matter what anyone says, they cost more to maintain and own. The repair bills are the proof.
 
Your experience is far different from mine and others that I know. Never had a turbo go bad and very rarely have heard of MB turbos on '80's and 90's diesels go bad. Then again, I always let the turbos cool down (for gasers as well) for about two min before shutting down the engine and use synthetic oil in them. I replaced 4 glow plugs on my 77 MB when I broke one of them. Never had to replace any since. Cold weather starts are an issue but nothing a block heater will not cure. I have had MB's all my life and have found them to be for the most part bullet proof. I do agree that that quality has gown down which is why my newest MB is a '95 and I plan on keeping it that way.

I have never had a great deal of faith in US vehicles especially when it comes to diesels. Their truck engines (Cummins) are better than their abysmal attempt at auto engines (80's IIRC) but MB has been making them since the 1920's and most that I have had/heard about are all but bullet proof.

The 210 chassis are POS as far as I am concerned. My father has a 2002 210 gaser and it is a POS as well. I feel it has less to do with diesel/gas than the fact that MB started to build to a price point.

I currently have a 2 MBs. I do most of the work my self and I cannot think of a comparable vehicle on the road that I would rather own.
 
The "Bluetec" MB Diesel is 50 state legal. The new VW's are also 50 state legal. Diesel technology has come quite a long way and are as clean or cleaner than gasers.


As for the price. I do not believe it. They could manufacture the engines in MX of CA where their other plants are and I do not believe they could not sell it for the same price as the rest of their econo cars. If they want to survive, they need to start thinking ahead.

As for taxing gas, it needs to be done in conjunction with increasing public transportation, sunsidies for purchasing fuel efficient cars to name a few things. If we do not starting weening our selves off of fossil fuel, we are going to be in a lot of trouble in the future

As UAL Tech pointed out the diesel products offered up by Mercedes are out of the price range of most people. While the TDI technology from VW is more affordable it's still not cheap. And since it's VW you have to wonder how much time it will spend in the shop. IMHO at this point Ford has nothing to lose by producing a diesel product here in the states. One that does not cost $24000.

Right now there is no politician who in their right mind would propose raising the gas tax. People are strapped enough as it is with the current price. It's rather easy to say things like “it needs to be done in conjunction with increasing public transportation". Implementing it would be entirely different matter. Take Southern California as an example. Putting in place a public transportation system like you have in New York or Chicago is not going to happen overnight.
 
As UAL Tech pointed out the diesel products offered up by Mercedes are out of the price range of most people. While the TDI technology from VW is more affordable it's still not cheap. And since it's VW you have to wonder how much time it will spend in the shop. IMHO at this point Ford has nothing to lose by producing a diesel product here in the states. One that does not cost $24000.

Right now there is no politician who in their right mind would propose raising the gas tax. People are strapped enough as it is with the current price. It's rather easy to say things like “it needs to be done in conjunction with increasing public transportation". Implementing it would be entirely different matter. Take Southern California as an example. Putting in place a public transportation system like you have in New York or Chicago is not going to happen overnight.


No, over night is definitely not going to happen. I think one of the biggest problems with public transportation is politicians always try to line the pockets of their friends and themselves by going way over board.

One idea I had was to use the existing freeway system as a public bus route. The exit/entrances would be pick up/drop points. We do not need 4 gas stations on each corner. Use immanent domain (for a good cause fianlly) and shut down two of them (one each side) and tuen them in to parking lots. People can drive to the local parking spot, walk up the stairs to the bus stop on the freeway median, rid the bus to their closest stop and take a shuttle to work. Incentives could be given for companies to run shuttles too and from the stops. Smaller companies could pool their resources. It is not a perfect solution but it is definitely a start. I worked right off the freeway and live one mile off the freeway. I know I am not alone. Give me a clean safe bus to ride and I am on board. In the mean time, we can start building subways or light rail to make it even more convenient father down line.

We do not always need to go for the most advanced, all the bells and whistles solution. Sometimes basic works better.

As for diesel, I think it is another supply/demand issue. The more people who buy them, the more affordable it becomes. MB is expensive becasue MB is expensive, not necessarily the technology. I am sure the Honda's will not be that much more than a gaser and VW is getting better in terms of reliability. The Europeans are buying diesels by the droves. IIRC the numbers are somewhere near the 50% mark. I seriously doubt they are all buying POS. I drove a Opel Astra (the new Saturn Astra. It was a 5 cylinder diesel 6 speed (I do not remember if it was a turbo or not) and I was really impressed. I remember thinking that if it had a sunroof I would have stolen it and shipped it back to the states. I have never been a fan of US cars so for me to say I wanted an Opel says a lot. If the big three can do it for Europe, then can do it for the US. They just choose not to. Given that VW seems to have a hard time keeping the diesels on their lot for more than a few days, I do not think it is a consumer issue anymore.
 

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