A Economic Math Puzzle

totobird

Senior
Nov 26, 2002
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You are incorrect in your simple math.
You are talking in pure dollars. Much of the savings come in the form of productivity changes which bring about the cost reductions.
 

RV4

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
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Read this:
http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/021128/1528000416_1.html
As reported, the 13,000 mechanics represented by the International Association of Machinists union rejected a plan to take 6%-7% paycuts and forego four days of vacation pay annually.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/021201/united_airlines_1.html
Association of Flight Attendants spokeswoman Dawn Deeks said Saturday 87 percent of the flight attendants who voted signed off on the deal. United's 24,000 flight attendants had been widely expected to approve the $412 million in wage concessions.
Still, machinists have rejected proposed reductions of $600 million in their wages and benefits.
The RIDDLE for ALL to solve:
Why does 24,000 flight attendants only give up $412 Million compares to 13,000 mechanics being asked to give $600 Million?
Lets do some basic math:
$412,000,000.00 Divided by 24,000 F/A's = $17,166.66 each
$600,000,000.00 Divided by 13,000 Mechanics = $46,153.84 each
That appears to me that each Mechanic is being asked to give up $28987.18 more than each flight attendant. If fact, the concession per mechanic is nearly 3 times that of a Flight Attendant.
Now to which of you does that sound fair?
These numbers are simple math, and why the mechanics will NOT accept the terms on which this raping is occurring.
Even if the IAM/UAL revise the way they get the $600 Miilion. It has been broadcast that the amount must remain $600 Million.
 

RV4

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Aug 20, 2002
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Why is cost per available seat mile simple math,

But concessions per employee per work group not simple math?
 

RV4

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[blockquote]
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On 12/1/2002 7:27:12 AM totobird wrote:

You are incorrect in your simple math.
You are talking in pure dollars. Much of the savings come in the form of productivity changes which bring about the cost reductions.

----------------
[/blockquote]

Every document I read about this recovery plan is done in "PURE DOLLARS".

Can you expound on who sacrifices when "non-pure dollars" are gained by productivity improvements?
 

RV4

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
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OK, so why cant the F/A's give up work rule concessions?

Why does the ground worker always eat from the dirt?

Or is this a just "FUZZY MATH", and that is why the ATSB has snubbed it's nose?
 

Bear96

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,926
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/1/2002 7:21:17 AM RV4 wrote:


Why does 24,000 flight attendants only give up $412 Million compares to 13,000 mechanics being asked to give $600 Million?

Lets do some basic math:

$412,000,000.00 Divided by 24,000 F/A's = $17,166.66 each

$600,000,000.00 Divided by 13,000 Mechanics = $46,153.84 each

That appears to me that each Mechanic is being asked to give up $28987.18 more than each flight attendant. If fact, the concession per mechanic is nearly 3 times that of a Flight Attendant.

Now to which of you does that sound fair?

----------------
[/blockquote]

It is interesting you choose to compare mechanics to F/A figures.

How about comparing what the mechanics are being asked to give up to what the pilots (who ratified their TA by a 95% margin) are giving up?

But anyways to answer your question. The F/As are giving up comparatively less for two reasons:

1. Because we MAKE comparatively less than the mechanics and pilots; and

2. It reflects that the pilots and mechanics started their concessionary negotiations from positions of "industry leading" compensation, whereas we started our concessionary negotiations from a position of "industry average" compensation.
 
U

UAL24

Guest
"Why does 24,000 flight attendants only give up $412 Million compares to 13,000 mechanics being asked to give $600 Million?

Lets do some basic math:

$412,000,000.00 Divided by 24,000 F/A's = $17,166.66 each

$600,000,000.00 Divided by 13,000 Mechanics = $46,153.84 each"




RV4,
Lets add something into the equation since everybody wants to fall on their own cross.

2,200,000,000 Divided by 8,800 Pilots = $250,000 each.
Mechanics = 46,183
F/A's = 17,167

Mechanics like to complain about pilots pay, well the pilots have put their money where their mouth is so to speak. Contrary to what everyone thinks all pilots arent making 300k a year. Not even remotely close. Pilots do make more than Mechanics,because their jobs are harder to do. Mechanics make more than f/a's, because their job is harder to do. Each persons job is important and difficult to them so my statement was not meant to minimize anyones value or contribution. Everybody bitches about work and their boss. It's the american way. When the dust settles in the end however, compensation is based on difficulty of job, technical expertise, training requirements, ease of replacement and level of responsibilty. Looking at the level of responsibilty tree it goes CEO, VP's,Pilot, Mechanic, FA, CSR, RAMP. May not like that but it is the fact of the world. Payscales pretty much line up along those lines. Again, each person works hard and is proud of their accomplishments within each job but that has little bearing on the economic rewards. It will never ever ever be any different. Pilots will always make the most amongst the laborers followed by mechancis and so on. That is history talking not me.

For you mechanics, I did send a letter to Tilton requesting he address your scheduling and supervisory concerns. I support your base complaints but not your vote. It seems the rumblings are that the ATSB had given a verbal commitment to UAL for approval pending the ratification by all groups for the full amount in each proposal. That has probably gone away now. So close to saving a great company. Good luck to all.
 

KCFlyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
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[STRONG] Everybody bitches about work and their boss. It's the american way.[/STRONG] [BR][BR]Actually, it would appear to be the American, United and USAirways way. Just trying to inject a bit of levity into these "us vs them" discussions.
 

Steiner

Advanced
Aug 21, 2002
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0
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/1/2002 10:05:54 AM UAL24 wrote:

Pilots do make more than Mechanics,because their jobs are harder to do.

----------------
[/blockquote]

Are you sure it isn't just because the pilots have a better PR department?
 

The Ronin

Senior
Sep 17, 2002
497
0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/1/2002 9:19:08 AM Bear96 wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/1/2002 7:21:17 AM RV4 wrote:


Why does 24,000 flight attendants only give up $412 Million compares to 13,000 mechanics being asked to give $600 Million?

Lets do some basic math:

$412,000,000.00 Divided by 24,000 F/A's = $17,166.66 each

$600,000,000.00 Divided by 13,000 Mechanics = $46,153.84 each

That appears to me that each Mechanic is being asked to give up $28987.18 more than each flight attendant. If fact, the concession per mechanic is nearly 3 times that of a Flight Attendant.

Now to which of you does that sound fair?

----------------
[/blockquote]

It is interesting you choose to compare mechanics to F/A figures.

How about comparing what the mechanics are being asked to give up to what the pilots (who ratified their TA by a 95% margin) are giving up?

But anyways to answer your question. The F/As are giving up comparatively less for two reasons:

1. Because we MAKE comparatively less than the mechanics and pilots; and

2. It reflects that the pilots and mechanics started their concessionary negotiations from positions of "industry leading" compensation, whereas we started our concessionary negotiations from a position of "industry average" compensation.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Industry leading...by what, a couple of pennies. Do I have to spend my entire career looking at the backs of AA,DAL,SWA,and now even Contiental???
 
U

UAL24

Guest
[blockquote]
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On 12/1/2002 10:48:38 AM Steiner wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/1/2002 10:05:54 AM UAL24 wrote:

Pilots do make more than Mechanics,because their jobs are harder to do.

----------------
[/blockquote]

Are you sure it isn't just because the pilots have a better PR department?

----------------
[/blockquote]
That is funny. If the pilots had a good PR department they wouldn't be perceived as the villian.

As for always looking at the back of other airline employee's in terms of salary get used to it. Every Major is furloughing in the mechanic ranks minus LUV. All the growth is coming in the Air Whiskey, Skywest, Great Lakes areas. Not only will you be junior to those guys if you can get hired there you will be making about 14k a year with no beney's. Saying you could just go out and get hired as a Master Techician at Mr. Goodwrench for 65k+ a year is like saying an Auto mech can come here and work on planes no problem. Its all just turning a wrench so I guess your right. Not. That argument is hollow and overused. It attempts to get a rise out of people. If you truly believed it you would have done it long ago considering most mechanics make it seem like they have been persecuted for the last 78 years.

UAL will flie BK very soon. Two things will happen most likely. 1st, UAL will get DIP financing and outsource all maintenance and much of the flying. 2nd, UAL will dissapear and then the mechanics will actually have to find those supposed jobs out there. Either way the mechanics lose more than if they had voted yes. If they take solice in taking everyone else with them then that says a lot for their character and why it is most people don't like them very much. Hope for everyone's sake a miracle can happen and the lives of the innocent 71,000 other employees and their families are not destroyed by a few bitter people holding a hollow grudge. You chose your career path knowing full well how much you were going to make. If you didn't like it that much you should have done something else long ago. Joining UAL777 in oblivion now. Fate is no longer tied to the sinking ship. Good luck all.
 

ual06

Senior
Aug 30, 2002
331
0
On the math side, anyone care to come up with an estimate of what UAL employees collectively pay in Federal income tax each year. I think it may be more than $1.8 billion.
 

RV4

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
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www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/1/2002 12:30:08 PM ual06 wrote:

On the math side, anyone care to come up with an estimate of what UAL employees collectively pay in Federal income tax each year. I think it may be more than $1.8 billion.
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[/blockquote]

What are you suggesting? That the Government give you a tax free paycheck and allow that money to be used by UAL to restructure? Interesting concept!

I like that idea.
 

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/1/2002 12:22:02 PM UAL24 wrote:

That is funny. If the pilots had a good PR department they wouldn't be perceived as the villian.

As for always looking at the back of other airline employee's in terms of salary get used to it. Every Major is furloughing in the mechanic ranks minus LUV. All the growth is coming in the Air Whiskey, Skywest, Great Lakes areas. Not only will you be junior to those guys if you can get hired there you will be making about 14k a year with no beney's. Saying you could just go out and get hired as a Master Techician at Mr. Goodwrench for 65k+ a year is like saying an Auto mech can come here and work on planes no problem. Its all just turning a wrench so I guess your right. Not. That argument is hollow and overused. It attempts to get a rise out of people. If you truly believed it you would have done it long ago considering most mechanics make it seem like they have been persecuted for the last 78 years.

UAL will flie BK very soon. Two things will happen most likely. 1st, UAL will get DIP financing and outsource all maintenance and much of the flying. 2nd, UAL will dissapear and then the mechanics will actually have to find those supposed jobs out there. Either way the mechanics lose more than if they had voted yes. If they take solice in taking everyone else with them then that says a lot for their character and why it is most people don't like them very much. Hope for everyone's sake a miracle can happen and the lives of the innocent 71,000 other employees and their families are not destroyed by a few bitter people holding a hollow grudge. You chose your career path knowing full well how much you were going to make. If you didn't like it that much you should have done something else long ago. Joining UAL777 in oblivion now. Fate is no longer tied to the sinking ship. Good luck all.
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[/blockquote]

$14k- are talking about pilots or mechanics? Normally a mechanic, even a senior mechanic can get back to top pay in 5 years or less. Many of the EAL mechanics made top pay in less than 3 years. Less time than this concessionary agreement. How long do you suppose it will take a senior top paid pilot to get back to top pay? Probably never happen.If you are so sure that UAL will file BK soon thats even more reason for the mechanics to reject the agreement, why lower the baseline? Hey, there is always the Hadj!