A Few Questions For You Amfa Boys

twuer

Veteran
Jul 9, 2003
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www.usaviation.com
TCC Monthly , published by AMFA Local 33, Vol 6, Issue *, May 2003
As reported by Joel Stenoien. . . “ Most of us have had a difficult 6 months filled with bumping and layoffs. Some of our members who have been doing the same job for over 10 years have been displaced. Atlanta was closed, and locally, hangers have been shut down and shops have lost most of their trained technicians because of bumping. We’ve watched friends and co-workers go out the door, probably for good and many have wondered when they will be next.”

Question #1-If Mr. Stenoien is correct about employees gone “probably for good”, what happened to AMFA’s position that “when these employees get recalled they will have good pay and benefits to come back to” (AMFA’s claim is that the preservation of pay and benefits is more important than jobs lost.)

Question #2-NWA/AMFA has not entered into a concessional agreement as of yet, how then do you explain the number of layoffs and the loss of work to foreign and domestic facilities???

Question #3-Will there be more layoffs and outsourcing if a concessional agreement is reached???

Just answer the questions please. We already know your opinions of the TWU!!

I have more where this came from!! :D ;) :D
 
Just because AMFA at NWA does things one way doesn't mean that AMFA when it gets to AA will do the same. And what a concept we can recall officers with AMFA's constitution. That pretty much takes care of all 3 questions.

Havea nice day. :)
 
How many times does a TWU STOOGE have to be told that NWA used "FORCE MAJEURE" to lay-off mechanics and reduce schedules? There are arbitration cases scheduled and being heard. Why wont you hear this and wait for the decisions?

Force Majeure is in the TWU/AA contract also, but instead we suffered a 17.5% paycut, lost 5 paid holidays, lost 5 vacation days, and will pay $230 per month for insurance by the year 2008, and still lost over 3500 TWU members from AA payroll. Do you call that success? We have zero limts on outsource. If is it required to have a union that is in bed with management to save our asses, then why bother to have a union at all. When is the TWU/AA arbitration to attempt to re-employee the 3500 plus TWU that were stripped of their JOB SECURITY protection? What is the remedy for those that have committed suicide while facing TWU concession?

Sure things are bad at NWA, and every other airline in the industry.

WHY DON'T YOU START EXPLAINING AND WORKING ON WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO US AT AA. INSTEAD OF CONSTATNTLY TALKING ABOUT EVERY OTHER CARRIER's PROBLEMS?

WE DON'T WORK FOR NORTHWEST! AND WE DID NOT SUFFER OUR INDUSTRY LEADING CONCESSION WHILE REPRESENTED BY AMFA.

WE WORK FOR AA, AND THE TWU SOLD US OUT ON THE CURRENT I.L. CONCESSIONS!
 
You keep harping on "We cannot remove the Officers or Representatives of the TWU?"

Every 4 years we hold a Convention, the membership votes the delegates in so they can vote for the Officers!

Last Convention their was 2 who ran for the position of President of The TWU. Only one was elected. We have our choice! The Majority Voted for Sonny Hall. The Convention Next Year the Best choice will be elected.

Please explain how many Conventions were held the last time for AMFA? Was their a lawsuit filed to conduct the secound One?

Right now it takes only one to file charges against the TWU Leaders and The Charges will be Investigated.

When was Delle-Femine Elected? Was he ever elected or has he just won by Default?

Who Elected the National Administrator of AMFA? Or was he apointed in 98?

If you are unemployed due to the Poor Scope Language how much are you Receiving?

TWU SOLIDARITY! The Best Choice in Representation
 
There is a convention, yes but it is for all the TWU not just the ATD. The # of members in the ATD can't possibly outvote all the bus drivers and transit workers.

The TWU International decides who to remove from office, for example, 561 president Chuck Schalk. Chuck represented not only his members in 562 but also all members of the TWU. But once again you can't remove Little, Yingst, or Gless. There is no recall.

As for Delle, I'm not positive but I don't think anyone has wanted to run against him. He must be doing a good job.

If TWU is the best choice for representation then why are we the only M&R Group that has them?

Have a nice day :)
 
RV4,
Why do you make things so personal? I asked legitimate questions and you find it intellectual to call me a stooge. It wasn’t the force majeure alone at Northwest that caused the over 4500 layoffs. It was largely the weak farm out language (NWA knew they could win in arbitration) that had never been tried by any other union (for good reason) that added to the large layoff numbers at Northwest. Did force majeure cause all those heavy checks to get outsourced overseas?

As far as the force majeure, I hear it’s not looking good for the first two and haven’t heard anything about a date for the third one. Rumor (a credible rumor) has it that AMFA has admitted they can’t win them. You’re right, there is a force majeure clause in the TWU contract too, however American still didn’t invoke it three times. TWU members chose to save their jobs by making a sacrifice. And where do you get 3500 and the $230 per month in insurance? You need to check what your AMFA boys at United are paying for their insurance since AMFA took over!
Here we go again, you’re blaming the TWU for suicides and bankruptcy, how much of that do you think is going on at Northwest and United since they have laid off over 10,000 people, thanks to the help of AMFA?
You right again, we weren’t represented by AMFA when we took the concessions. If we would’ve been, there would be a lot more of what you blame on the TWU. Oh, and AMFA doesn’t negotiate concessions, right? Is that why they have hired the Seneca Group, to NOT look at the need for concessions? Things are bad at NWA because their operating costs are too high. That’s why NWA has asked the AMFA represented group for $173.3 million in concessions. You may vote to send them into bankruptcy but AMFA is already changing their tune about concessions. Their position has gone from “NO CONCESSIONS” to “no UNWARRANTED concessions”, why is that Dave? Is it because they can’t deliver on their promise of “NO CONCESSIONS”?
You claim that TWU (and IAM @ NWA) don’t have any contractual outsource limits. I beg to differ, Dave. Have you read the contract lately? (or ever for that matter) We had current limits established during the signing of the 2001 agreement and still have them today. If we didn’t, why wouldn’t AA outsource to the same degree as all the AMFA represented airlines? The answer is, our contract language is much stronger. AMFA has admitted that the language they used had never been tried before. Fantastic language, Dave….they should’ve just put….WE AGREE TO LAY OFF 5000 PEOPLE! If the IAM language was so ineffective on outsourcing at NWA, then why did the outsourcing dramatically increase immediately following the signing of the 38% cap? According to PEB record AMFA and NWA agreed to a cap (38%) that is comfortably above the current practice.
Now, let’s talk about job security protection shall we?? How did AMFA protect the jobs of the 4500 laid off workers at NWA and the 6000 laid off workers at United? The system protection date at AA is 1998, at NWA it’s 1990! (you called me a liar when I told you that!!) Check the seniority list Einstein!
As far as “what has happened to us at AA”, I think you answered your own question when you said “sure things are bad at NWA and at every other airline in the industry. AA is an airline in this industry. I only talk about the airlines that have AMFA representation because I am trying to print some truth of how AMFA does business. You have put so many spins on what has happened that I don’t even think you can keep all of your stories straight.

Oh, and by the way. . .you never answered the 3 questions I asked to begin with. Your turn. . .
 
And why is it, RV4, that when a TWU unionist scripts a post he is automatically a stooge?, Shows your lack of unionism...never mind the fact that a RV4 is a Toyota!

Possibly you should stand back and read/comprehend. Never have I witnessed a contract at any major airline where they incorporated a "Protection Clause" into their contract. Imagine...no layoff.

Tell me I'm wrong ...that if AMFA would takeover AA that there wouldn't be the same amount of disgruntled employees . And why the H is it always the unions fault? Must the unions always spoon feed and then be bashed for skipping a beat?
 
Dear twuer’

Although I am an active member of AMFA, I am certainly not ‘a’ boy.

Let’s start with publishing the whole link to the news letter:

http://www.amfa33.org/TCC/TCC%20-%20May%202003.pdf

********************************************************
TCC Monthly , published by AMFA Local 33, Vol 6, Issue *, May 2003
As reported by Joel Stenoien. . . “ Most of us have had a difficult 6 months filled with bumping and layoffs. Some of our members who have been doing the same job for over 10 years have been displaced. Atlanta was closed, and locally, hangers have been shut down and shops have lost most of their trained technicians because of bumping. We’ve watched friends and co-workers go out the door, probably for good and many have wondered when they will be next.â€


Question #1-If Mr. Stenoien is correct about employees gone “probably for goodâ€, what happened to AMFA’s position that “when these employees get recalled they will have good pay and benefits to come back to†(AMFA’s claim is that the preservation of pay and benefits is more important than jobs lost.)

********************************************************
People Helping People
by Joel Stenoien (Page 3 of 12)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe that you will have to discuss this “opinion†with Mr. Joel Stenoien.
However, I think that this statement is more than likely true than not (regardless of the union affiliation).
What is going on at the SFOMOC is probably more draconian than the NWA people are seeing.
As you know (but choose not to address), when “a†company chooses to implement the ‘Force Majeure’ clause in the contract, we (unions) have no other recourse other than to follow legally defined procedures. Legal and political protection is for the company; and labor always has a hard case to disprove otherwise. Regardless, once you open the “Pandora’s Box†(concession trough), it is hard to get a corporation to look at other avenues of cost reduction. Cutting employees pay and benefits simply because it is easier (and politically correct) than doing the analysis, and research to give the public a better product at a price they are willing (able) to pay.

If you TWU ‘boys’ have a better answer, I’m sure we are all ears and are willing to be educated.

********************************************************
Question #2-NWA/AMFA has not entered into a concessional agreement as of yet, how then do you explain the number of layoffs and the loss of work to foreign and domestic facilities???
********************************************************

Open the book of ‘DUH’. ‘Force Majeure’. What did the IAM do when this was implemented and the IMC was shut down?
If the IAM has such an ‘iron-clad’ contract, then explain the work being done in Mexico!!!

********************************************************

Question #3-Will there be more layoffs and outsourcing if a concessional agreement is reached???
********************************************************

Only if they are ‘confused’ (but it is their own choice and they will have an opportunity to vote on making concessions or not). But with AMFA, you only get one shot, and will not be required to repeat the vote until it is satisfactory to the national.

Hope this helps in your edification.

UT
 
Mem2.jpg
 
twuer said:
RV4,
As far as the force majeure, I hear it’s not looking good for the first two and haven’t heard anything about a date for the third one. Rumor (a credible rumor) has it that AMFA has admitted they can’t win them. You’re right, there is a force majeure clause in the TWU contract too, however American still didn’t invoke it three times. TWU members chose to save their jobs by making a sacrifice. And where do you get 3500 and the $230 per month in insurance?
And where do you hear these things? Are you in contact with the lawyers preparing and presenting the case? Or are you visiting with the disgruntled previous IAM worker Jerry Sowell who still refuses to show up to work and carry his load?

Of course AA didn't invoke "force majeure", they didn't have to because Jim Little invoked Horse Manure for wages and benefits without further ratification.

As for the medical and 3500 TWU members, look here:


MEDICAL:

Here is the complete package:
http://www.air-mechanic.com/pdf/medical.pdf

Screen Capture from above linked documents presented to the AA/TWU Presidents Council (See Page 11 for TWU). And notice the REDUCED coverage in addition to increseed payroll deductions:

medical.jpg


And as for the 3500 TWU MEMBERS screwed out of job security:

rif.jpg


TITLE I = 1371
TITLE III = 1856
TITLE V = 57
Plus 130 more from Tech, Dispatch, Sim, Meteor, workgroups.

Plus Job Security date move to 1998
 
twuer said:
RV4,
Here we go again, you’re blaming the TWU for suicides and bankruptcy, how much of that do you think is going on at Northwest and United since they have laid off over 10,000 people, thanks to the help of AMFA?


I dont work for Norhtwest or United, and I am not represented by AMFA (yet).

And I don't recall a "WITHOUT FURTHER RATIFICATION" contract signing at either of those carriers.

So who gets the blame at AA?
 
twuer said:
RV4,

Oh, and AMFA doesn’t negotiate concessions, right? Is that why they have hired the Seneca Group, to NOT look at the need for concessions? Things are bad at NWA because their operating costs are too high. That’s why NWA has asked the AMFA represented group for $173.3 million in concessions. You may vote to send them into bankruptcy but AMFA is already changing their tune about concessions. Their position has gone from “NO CONCESSIONS†to “no UNWARRANTED concessionsâ€, why is that Dave? Is it because they can’t deliver on their promise of “NO CONCESSIONSâ€?

Your posting regarding "high cost" appear to come directly from the airline management book on pre-concession brain washing.

As for AMFA change of positioning, I suspect this is because next time they appear before a Presidential Emergency Board, Northwest Airlines management will be heavily ARMED with the TWU/AA contract and thus a victory would be more difficult. :shock:

I'll bet you one thing.

You will never see a "without further ratification" :down: ...

...agreement at NWA or any other AMFA represented carrier for that matter!
 
_AMT_MCI said:
And why is it, RV4, that when a TWU unionist scripts a post he is automatically a stooge?, Shows your lack of unionism...never mind the fact that a RV4 is a Toyota!

Possibly you should stand back and read/comprehend. Never have I witnessed a contract at any major airline where they incorporated a "Protection Clause" into their contract. Imagine...no layoff.

Tell me I'm wrong ...that if AMFA would takeover AA that there wouldn't be the same amount of disgruntled employees . And why the H is it always the unions fault? Must the unions always spoon feed and then be bashed for skipping a beat?
As a post script to the above quote, members in TUL don't go to the union meetings anyway, what makes you think they will go to AMFAs meetings, it seems to me that AMFA is really only interested in the Line stations and TUL is the stumbling block for AMFA, hence the big drive in TUL, We've all heard the line stations bitching about Tul did this or voted that, what makes them think that things will change if AMFA gets in, Tul will still have a huge number of employees, and if TUL dosent like the way it is then they will still vote against it, regardless of what the Line stations want.
 
_AMT_MCI said:
And why is it, RV4, that when a TWU unionist scripts a post he is automatically a stooge?, Shows your lack of unionism...never mind the fact that a RV4 is a Toyota!
He is NOT automatically a stooge, he earns that infamous designation with a series of stooge like postings.

Example: An RV4 is not a TOYOTA, it is home built kit aircraft. That TOYOTA statement now classifies you as a stooge also! An RAV4 is a TOYOTA, you stooge. Can you see the difference in RAV4 and RV4? There is an "A" missing, still Doubt that you now qualify?

Read this:

stooge

Pronunciation: (stOOj), [key]
—n., v., stooged, stoog•ing.

—n.
1. an entertainer who feeds lines to the main comedian and usually serves as the butt of his or her jokes.
2. any underling, assistant, or accomplice.



Here is more information on the RV4
For your enjoyment:

Introduction

1. These handling notes are based upon a flight test program carried out on an imported RV4 aircraft G-FTUO fitted with a Lycoming 0-360 fuel injected 180HP engine. The aircraft was built to the standard RV4 specification to a high degree of manufacturing accuracy. The advice here is based upon a subjective assessment of the aircraft flown and should be read in conjunction with the kit manufacturer's notes. The pitot/static system was believed to be over-reading slightly, which may account for slightly higher values for stall speeds and approach speeds throughout. Engine handling requirements have not been discussed thoroughly, as these will depend upon the type of engine installation.

Cockpit

2. The RV4 cockpit is adequately sized for the average build, although it would be a tight fit for the more portly gentlemen amongst us. Despite being sat well down into the seat with a seat cushion of perhaps 2 inches thickness I found that there was not a great deal of canopy clearance (about 2 inches for a 5ft 11" pilot). The cockpit is vented from punka louvres under the instrument panel and this provides sufficient air to keep the forward part of the bubble canopy from misting badly during cold weather with two on board. However, they are insufficient to prevent canopy misting around the rear occupant. This has been solved with some owners using NACA ducts, let into the lower rear canopy fairing, to provide additional ventilation. Some aircraft are also modified with a canopy support strut for taxying with the canopy open a couple of inches. The canopy locking mechanism is sound.

The rear seat is somewhat cramped with most RV4s not being fitted with rudder pedals in the rear cockpit and the potential for some interference between the occupant's left leg and the Flap Lever. Although the fitting of electrically operated flaps is often included, the standard mechanical arrangement is less than ideal. The flap lever, situated just underneath the pilot's left thigh, has narrow detents for the mid/full flap positions.

- 1 -

This is precisely where the rear occupants left leg/foot is normally situated. Limited flying was carried out with the rear passenger in situ, although it is recommended to ask the rear passenger to move his left leg rearwards prior to and during operation of the flap lever. Although with air loads, the flaps would not accidentally lower in flight, the lever did have a tendency to jump out of the narrow gate for the Up position whilst on the ground, thus lowering flaps to the mid position.

Throttle/Mixture Levers were mounted next to one another in a quadrant type arrangement. This aircraft was modified with a mixture lever balk to prevent inadvertent mixture cut-off during throttle movement and aerobatics. The fuel cock for both L and R Wing Tanks was easily identifiable and readily accessible mounted on the floor between the pilot's legs.

Elevator trim was operated by a lever mounted forward of the throttle on the fuselage wall. This control was both easy to reach and operate during flight.

Taxying

3. Taxying presented no difficulties with good visibility over the nose of the aircraft and both a steerable tailwheel and differential toe-braking available. Weaving the aircraft during taxi was not necessary. Spats were fitted and care must be taken when taxying over unprepared or rutted surfaces to avoid damage. There was no parking brake.

Take-Off can be performed with the flaps Up or at the Mid position as necessary.

Take Off and Climb

4. The aircraft performs very well with 180 HP, the large rudder providing ample directional control for take-off in significant cross winds. In still air, there is a little directional swing as the tail rises. However, compensation required is minimal and the aircraft rapidly gets airborne and accelerates to climbing speed. A 110mph climb at 2350rpm produced 2000ft/min rate of climb. Flap is not required for Take-Off unless a particularly short Take-Off run is required. In this case the Mid position may be used, bearing in mind that the aircraft accelerates rapidly to the flap limiting speed of 100mph. Trim was set just forward of neutral and lift off occurred around 70mph.

- 2 - Longitudinal Stability

5. Longitudinal Stability was satisfactory including a very positive stick force/g relationship providing plenty of protection against exceeding g limitations. This was more than adequate for aerobatics taking into account the strong airframe design. High positive static stability in the cruise leads to relatively high control forces in pitch compared to the ailerons, which remain crisp and light throughout the flight envelope. Despite this slight heaviness in pitch, the general harmonisation of the controls is satisfactory and suitable for an aircraft of this type.

Lateral/Directional Stability

6. Strong directional stability and adequate dihedral effect provides for a linear aileron/rudder relationship for sideslip angles up to full rudder deflection both with and without flap. Sideslip can be used comfortably on the final approach, with significant effect on approach angle and no pitot/static interference. Control is positive at all times with the large rudder and presents no problem in kicking off drift for de-crabbing following sideslip or during cross wind landing.

Dutch roll is well damped and the aircraft has a neutrally stable spiral mode.

Stalling

7. The clean stall is uneventful with little to no wing drop and aileron control effective down to the stall at 63mph. About 5-7kts of light stall warning buffet is present with a significantly high nose attitude from a l kt/s deceleration in level flight. Dynamic entries and turning entries would not induce a wing drop unless sideslip was deliberately introduced. Unsurprisingly, stalling with flap at 58mph produced a consistent wing drop (to the left). However, recovery was swift, if applied immediately, with no tendency to accelerate too rapidly to flap limiting speed.

Aerobatics

8. All looping manoeuvres were initiated from 170mph and using a smooth 3.5g entry. This speed was also satisfactory for the roll off the top manoeuvre, with minimal adverse yaw producing a comfortable rolling manoeuvre at low speed.

- 3 - Barrel Rolls and Slow Rolls were comfortably initiated at 160mph.

Stall turns were commenced with a pull up from 170 mph. For the LH stall turn, rudder could be delayed significantly, the effect of the prop wash help to provide sufficient turning moment. RH stall turns, however, required the rudder to be fed in at around 75mph to ensure that the aircraft would turn cleanly.

Caution:

With the fixed pitch prop as fitted to this aircraft, care must be taken not to overspeed the engine. This is particularly easy to do since the aircraft is very clean and accelerates quickly in a dive. A Vne run was carried out at 1/3 throttle position and the rpm approached the limiting value of 2700rpm at the Vne of 210mph. Engine overspeeding will occur if care is not taken during manouevring.

Spinning

9. The aircraft will not auto-rotate unless forced to do so by deliberate pro-spin application of controls. Initiation of significant sideslip near the stall will initiate auto-rotation with a full erect spin developing should pro-spin controls be held. Spins in both directions exhibit similar characteristics with rotation rate steadily increasing and attitude flattening slightly with an increasing no. of turns. Erect spins were limited to 3 turns in both directions with the throttle at idle.

Recovery was prompt in all cases (within 1/2 turn), with opposite rudder applied and steadily and centrally moving the stick forward until the rotation stopped. Recovery was also effective by centering all controls, although recovery was delayed further by 1/2 turn.

Approach and Landing

10. 80mph appeared a suitable approach speed although Vans recommended 75 mph. Although 75 mph provided a satisfactory margin from the stall, the increase in drag, particularly from the prop, on reducing power in the flare generally produced a more positive landing.

- 4 -

With the sprung undercarriage design, this produced a tendency to oscillate up and down on the gear assembly and did not feel as comfortable as the more controlled flare and deceleration from 80mph.

Deceleration through the flare was such that this increase in approach speed did not appear to have a marked effect on landing roll out. The aircraft is straightforward to 3 point with no directional difficulties throughout the landing roll.

The go-around requires only a pound or so of forward stick force to compensate for full power and acceleration into the climb, with no tendency to rapidly accelerate through the flap limiting speed.

During glide approaches 85mph worked well as an initial glide speed both clean and with flap, aiming for 80 mph coming into the flare. Any slower than 8Omph produces a significant drag rise in the approach configuration and consequent increased rate of descent.

Conclusion

11. An aircraft with bags of performance in hand which is a delight to fly and operate. Probably best suited to a PPL holder with some experience of taildraggers, including higher performance aircraft. Benign handling characteristics with potential pitfalls for the unwary concerning engine/airframe overspeeding.