A tale of two airlines in irregular ops

PHL

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
1,658
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I was flying from BNA to PHL last night. After a few delays to the 330pm flight (2440, operated by PSA), they canceled it outright around 430pm. The following flight at 711pm (3834 operated by Wisconsin) was also canceled.

I was on the WiFi at the time of the cancellation announcement in the gate area and immediately pulled up southwest.com. Not only were their flights operating to PHL (one nonstop and a few one stops), but they were charging a measly $160 WALK UP fare. My canceled US flight was credited back at $219 (leg 2 of a roundtrip). This was a no brainer and I let everyone in the area know that they can grab seat(s) on WN if they hurry. Fortunately, I already secured mine and checked in online in the 5 minutes since the US flight was canceled and the very long line was formed at the desk.

The agent at the desk was telling all the US passengers that "ATC canceled the remaining flights to PHL". While I believe that SHE believed what she was being fed, I don't believe it to be the truth. If that were the case, why was every other airline at BNA operating flights to BWI, PHL, EWR, LGA and JFK - all of which were under heavy FAA traffic flow restrictions. Sure - they all went late, but when they all eventually operate and US doesn't, that tells me there is a big OPERATIONAL problem at US. The 730pm WN flight didn't leave until 9pm. But the point is that THEY OPERATED.

When I stepped off the plane at 1230am, the D concourse was abuzz with people. These weren't overnight refugees, because they were all queued up in the gate areas for departures. Yes, WN was still sending planes out to their destinations at 1230am and beyond. Based on the level of activity there, it seemed as if it could have been 5pm rather than 1230am. I walked down to the C concourse towards the garage and peeked down the hall only to see a ghost town.

So, why did US cancel 2440 and 3834 last night when WN operated their own evening nonstop to PHL? Why didn't US just fall in line and go late (better late than never...). Nobody likes delays, but when people are mulling around an airport after a flight cancellation, it's frustrating to them to see other airlines operating to the same city, or other cities affected by the same weather restrictions. The grief and anger would be minimized if they were simply delayed and at least felt that they had lots of company.
 
Your skepticism of the agent is correct: ATC doesn't cancel flights. The do, however, limit the number of operations per hour and that makes USAirways have to decide which flights to cancel. For obvious economic reasons they'll almost always cancel RJs over mainline flights.

In addition to SWA being a better-run airline overall it must be pointed out that their point-to-point vice hub-and-spoke operation is intrinsically easier to handle when a hub is under pressure.
 
it must be pointed out that their point-to-point vice hub-and-spoke operation is intrinsically easier to handle when a hub is under pressure.
While you're right, especially at a smaller WN "focus" city like PHL, let's look at somewhat matching operations.....

US @ PHL - cancelled 15.3% of mainline departures and 18.4% of mainline arrivals according to flightstats

WN @ BWI - cancelled 2.2% of departures and 8.1% of arrivals

CO @ EWR - cancelled 3.9% of mainline departures and 2.0% of mainline arrivals

Both WN and CO operate more mainline flights at those airports than US does at PHL.

Jim
 
While you're right, especially at a smaller WN "focus" city like PHL, let's look at somewhat matching operations.....

US @ PHL - cancelled 15.3% of mainline departures and 18.4% of mainline arrivals according to flightstats

WN @ BWI - cancelled 2.2% of departures and 8.1% of arrivals

CO @ EWR - cancelled 3.9% of mainline departures and 2.0% of mainline arrivals

Both WN and CO operate more mainline flights at those airports than US does at PHL.

Jim

This is so sad. When will it get better? Employees have been hoping for something better for nearly 5 years now and despite being a profitable airline, performance, service, and customer satisfaction are worse than ever. Sigh.
 
Yes there are buffers built in but when delays go beyond 3 hours on several flights there just is a certain amount of reserves to cover everything. And there is the crew rest issue the next morning too.
 
PHL, glad you had the foresight to act quickly and switch to WN to make it home. One of the big differances in this case between WN and US is WN has 100 pct control of their flights as far as what to delay vs cancel. US on the other hand only has 100 pct control over it's Mainline flights and limited control over it's Express flights, whether PSA/PI or contract carriers such as Air Wisconsin. The Express cordinator in US OCC can request that certain Express flights be cancelled at PHL to facilitate US ML during irregular ops but ultimatley it's up to each carriers own dispatch and sometimes due to the size of these operations and level of experiance they become overwhelmed and it shows in big Express cities, such as LGA where we have 7 different Experss carriers, and 4 with sizeable operations.

As far the two BNA-PHL cancellations last night, although I was working in LGA last night, I saw all the PHL flow control updates on my printer, and they where bad, even by PHL standards. I checked the loads on many of the transatlantic departures, early afternoon and again at the end of the night and some seemed to have as high as a 50 pct drop from booked to actual passengers due to so many inbound connections flights either cancelled or significantly delayed.

Regards

LGA777
 
Mr. PHL I think you need to get your facts in order, at a hub the airline with the dominat carrier will have most of the
cancelled flights and you may check that with the FAA if they will release that info to you.......................If you go to the other hubs for the major airlines Exp... ORD, DFW, ATL you will find the same situation, so in conclusion it seems you
don't not know what you are speaking about.... I for one will bad mouth US anytime they screw up but when it is not their fault then i will speak up..................and you did say the flight was delayed...I rest my case................best wishes
flying southwest....................
 
When ATC delays cause crew time outs with no reserves left over you have no choice but to cancel and charge it to ATC.


Even if there are plenty of fresh, bright-eyed reserves available, unless they are in a position to operate the affected flight they are useless. Unless these Express carriers had crew bases in BNA, if the crews timed-out it is highly unlikely that available reserves could have been of any help given the limited number of flights that might have gotten them to BNA and into position.
 
Now I confused again.

FAA=ATC

Crew Timeouts = US Airways.

Where did SWA get crews to operate their flights? I don't think they carry inflatable Flight Attendents.

Isn't part of planning and scheduling the consideration of irregular ops? We hear how hard it is to get your hours flying reserve so why do we have this disconnect???
Piney,
It would all depend on what time the WN crew went on duty. As for crew time outs= USAirways, that's not really true. Duty time limitations are set by the FAA.
I liked the idea of the inflatable F/A though.....maybe she/he could step into my place after a 14 hour day.....if US could get them, they would.
 
Here's an interesting experience from yesterday...

Yesterday, I had to be in Cherry Hill for a meeting with my boss and HIS boss, who came from LAX. Knowing what I know about PHL, I had them fly into EWR (in fairness, it was also less out of my way to pick them up in the morning), but I knew they'd actually have an easier time flying back out of EWR.

After the meeting, I dropped them off at EWR (UA to IAD, then IAD-LAX). They are both 1K at UA.
They check in, and proceed to the RC room, where they overhear a conversation with an agent telling them everything to IAD is being cancelled. (Just to be fair again, the check in agent didn't tell them about that either, but it could have happened between check in and their arrival at the RC club). They get to the agent, who looks at their reservation, and then tries to book them on CO to LAX, but they are sold out. So she goes in, and asks if they mind going to JFK, they say no problem, and she books them on the 8:55PM JFK-LAX nonstop (PS), AND gives them each a double upgrade to F on a 3 class flight!!!

So here I am on Staten Island in traffic and my boss calls and asks if I would turn around pick them up and bring them to JFK--of course I did. Their flight was 2 hours late, but it did operate.

Irregular ops happen to everyone--but some are better equipped than others to reaccommodate and assist affected customers once it happens. Also it occurs to me that other airlines give their agents more accurate and up to date information--I will give the US agents the benefit of the doubt here.

I wish more US agents were proactive and actually cared about helping affected customers---I know many of you still are, but a growing number could just not care less, and I am sorry to say it is showing. I blame much of that on the fact that you don't have the tools to do the job (res system, accurate FLIFO, etc.), but I think we're seeing more frustration come out and into the public arena.

...at least I was right to bring them through EWR....