AA aircraft types in 1969

seattleflyer

Newbie
Dec 31, 2002
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I lurk and read the message boards and this is my first post. I recently acquired an AA system timetable dated October 1969. The schedules list aircraft type, and obviously, I recognize all the Boeing products (707, 727). There is one type I don''t know and the aircraft designation is 400. Is this a BAC111-400 or another type? Can someone help out here?
Also, I wish you (AAer''s and the rest) safe journeys in the new year.
 

ITRADE

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
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DCA/IAD US2
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God... I remember boarding an Express flight on the ramp at PHL about a year ago and heard this unbearably loud whining noise approaching me. Looked past tail of the aircraft and saw this all-white BAC-111 come screaming down TWY E towards the north apron.
 

ss278

Member
Aug 25, 2002
34
0
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 12/31/2002 12:43:02 PM seattleflyer wrote:
[P][BR] Is this a BAC111-400 or another type? Can someone help out here?[BR][BR]--------------[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P] Yes, it is the BAC-111-400 series. AA referred to them as the 400 Astrojet. I only flew on them a couple of times, rather noisy (those Speys' were never quiet) and somewhat cramped (F-2-2; Y -2-3 configuration) but they served a purpose at the time. The only other US carriers that I know of who operated them were Braniff, Mohawk (US Air), and I believe Aloha for a little while before acquiring their 737's.[BR][BR]Bonanza wanted to buy some but could not get financing. The U.S. government at the time had a program for regionals who could not afford to upgrade to jets on their own or attract outside financing. Bonanza wanted to use this program to finance its' 111's, but the government would not allow it for foreign made airplanes, hence they wound up with DC9-10's. I don't know if the program was modified later on to allow its use for the 111, Caravelle and the like. Obviously Mohawk found a way to buy them.[BR][BR][BR]And a Happy New Year to you all as well.[/P]
 
OP
S

seattleflyer

Newbie
Dec 31, 2002
2
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Thank you very much for the reply and all the extra information. I figured it was, but what is odd about the timetable I have is that the cover is in the 'current' American Airlines fonts and colors. Did the new (current) livery come on line in the late 1960s? I have seen pics of those BAC111's in the 'old' what we call retro style livery with the oval, AA, and cool eagle. I think it had the red/orange lightning bolt, too, which i wish sometimes, were the current livery. (Don't get me wrong, the current one is a classic, and hope not to start a new thread on new liveries.)

Also, it's funny to see (in my 1969 timetable) the major operations (focus city) at Detroit (DTW) at the time. 707s to Syracuse and Buffalo; must be continuing on from all the transcons.
 

mga707

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
1,330
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/31/2002 6:46:10 PM seattleflyer wrote:

Thank you very much for the reply and all the extra information. I figured it was, but what is odd about the timetable I have is that the cover is in the 'current' American Airlines fonts and colors. Did the new (current) livery come on line in the late 1960s? I have seen pics of those BAC111's in the 'old' what we call retro style livery with the oval, AA, and cool eagle. I think it had the red/orange lightning bolt, too, which i wish sometimes, were the current livery. (Don't get me wrong, the current one is a classic, and hope not to start a new thread on new liveries.)
[/blockquote]

Yes, you are correct. The still-current AA color scheme was introduced in early 1969. The first aircraft in the new scheme (a 707 and a 727-023, IIRC) were rolled out at that time.
However, the timetables had switched over from the "Astrojet" colors to the new scheme the previous year, in 1968. At that same time the timetable format switched to an all-quick reference format. Prior to that, there was limited quick reference service in the front, and complete system schedules followed in the older 'railroadstyle' format.

As far as the BAC-111s, they were never repainted into the current scheme, as all were retired by the end of 1972.
The final aircraft to be repainted, aside from the BACs, were the early 727-223s (the N68xx series), which were delivered new in 1968-69, and thus were not repainted until they went in for heavy maintenance in the early '70s.
All of the 747s and DC-10s were delivered in the new colors, from 1970 and 1971 on, respectively.
 

lownslow

Advanced
Aug 19, 2002
127
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www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 12/31/2002 3:20:53 PM ss278 wrote:

The only other US carriers that I know of who operated them were Braniff, Mohawk (US Air), and I believe Aloha for a little while before acquiring their 737's.

----------------
[/blockquote]

Add another one to the list - Britt Airways once operated BAC-111-400s. At the time of their purchase by People Express, they operated 2. People Express went up for sale a few short months after the sale, and about a year after Britt was bought, it became part of Continental Express ops. I imagine by this time the 111s were gone, but I can't say for certain.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/055134/M/
 

Cosmo

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
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IIRC, there was also an organization in California called Pacific Express that flew 111s for a while (not sure if they were -400 series, though). I believe that this occurred during the early-to-mid 1980s.

MGA707, being the repository of virtually all historical aviation knowledge, please help me out here! Thanks.
 

mturpiz

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Aug 22, 2002
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www.usaviation.com
BAC 1-11 operators in the US I can think of:

American
Braniff (original)
Mohawk
Allegheny/USAir (based on Mohawk purchase)
Cascade
Air Illinois
Britt
Air Wisconsin
Pacific Express
Florida Express
Braniff II (after buying FLExpress)
Atlantic Gulf

I'm not sure of anybody in Hawaii, but perhaps.
 

ss278

Member
Aug 25, 2002
34
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[BR]mturpiz,[BR][BR]You absolutely right. I didn't have time to check when I posted, but I did go back to some reference books I have later on, and the carriers you listed all indeed were 111 operators. Good job.
 

mga707

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
1,330
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/2/2003 2:04:12 PM Cosmo wrote:

IIRC, there was also an organization in California called Pacific Express that flew 111s for a while (not sure if they were -400 series, though). I believe that this occurred during the early-to-mid 1980s.

MGA707, being the repository of virtually all historical aviation knowledge, please help me out here! Thanks.
----------------
[/blockquote]

Correct about Pacific Express. They flew BACs 1982-84. However, they were -200 series, not the AA-spec -400s.
(As always, the book "Deregulation Knockouts" is an invaluable tool for looking up data on '80s startups).

So, to summarize, AA, Braniff, Mohawk, and Aloha were the only US carriers to order factory-fresh BACs. All others were secondhand operators. Interestingly, no US airline ever operated the 'stretch' Series 500, AFAIK.
 

mga707

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
1,330
2
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/2/2003 3:15:45 PM mturpiz wrote:

BAC 1-11 operators in the US I can think of:

American
Braniff (original)
Mohawk
Allegheny/USAir (based on Mohawk purchase)
Cascade
Air Illinois
Britt
Air Wisconsin
Pacific Express
Florida Express
Braniff II (after buying FLExpress)
Atlantic Gulf

I'm not sure of anybody in Hawaii, but perhaps.

----------------
[/blockquote]

Aloha, pre-737.

One interesting trivia tidbit is that, by virtue of taking over Florida Express, Braniff II ended up with some of Braniff I's original "FastBACs"!
 
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/2/2003 12:47:13 PM lownslow wrote:

Add another one to the list - Britt Airways once operated BAC-111-400s. At the time of their purchase by People Express, they operated 2.

----------------
[/blockquote]

Britt used them for charters only from what I remember. Working for PE at ORD, I don't ever remember seeing one in revenue service.

Britt sold them in May and September 1987 respective, and it looks like both ended up flying for Okada Air (Nigeria), with N390BA (l/n 129) being scrapped in 1992, and N392BA (l/n 131) being stored in 1997. Both were built in 1968, delivered to Autair, which later became Court Line. Court shut down in 1974. They each flew for four different carriers between 1974 and 1984/1985, which is when Britt picked them up from DanAir and BCal.
 

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