Aircraft Maintenance Outsourcing

U

UAL_TECH

Guest
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Dear Flying Public,
Do not come to me in the future and ask to fix a problem that you helped create!!!
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As we have seen in the last few years leading up to 911, there has been great emphisis on training the next generation of AMT''s. Now that we are in this downturn, and AMT''s that are being ''released'' are leaving the industry, what is the future impact on aviation maintenance?

As the ''new'' FAR145/OSV/MRO personnel are picking up the slack (both in/out of USA). What is the calculated DPRM until they get up to a level of maintenance that is required of keeping these puppies in the air?


IMHO,
UT
 

Steiner

Advanced
Aug 21, 2002
161
0
www.usaviation.com
Shh.... let this be a surprise in a few years, when the cost-effective repair people can only follow the 101 pages. Besides, airplanes do not need to be "fixed", they just need to be signed-off. Fixed tends to cost a bit more.
 

atabuy

Senior
Oct 13, 2002
419
0
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On 4/11/2003 4:25:24 PM UAL_TECH wrote:



---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Flying Public,
Do not come to me in the future and ask to fix a problem that you helped create!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------

As we have seen in the last few years leading up to 911, there has been great emphisis on training the next generation of AMT''s.  Now that we are in this downturn, and AMT''s that are being ''released'' are leaving the industry, what is the future impact on aviation maintenance?

As the ''new''  "FAR145/OSV/MRO" personnel are picking up the slack (both in/out of USA).  What is the calculated DPRM until they get up to a level of maintenance that is required of keeping these puppies in the air?


IMHO,
UT


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UT
What part of utopia do you live in?

Do you really think you can go through life without ever being affected by world changes. Do you think the sacrifices you make now, might give you a job for life, down the road?

I know that a persons problems, even if small, seem enormous to them.
I would ask you to maybe take a larger view of life and look around at what some people are sacrificing to allow us to live in this world. Life itself!There are over 107 American lives that will never have any chance to experience life.
Measured against that, I think some contracting out and wage reductions aren''t too bad.
IMHO
Just a different prospective.
 

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
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On 4/12/2003 10:46:34 AM atabuy wrote:

UT
What part of utopia do you live in?

Do you really think you can go through life without ever being affected by world changes. Do you think the sacrifices you make now, might give you a job for life, down the road?

I know that a persons problems, even if small, seem enormous to them.
I would ask you to maybe take a larger view of life and look around at what some people are sacrificing to allow us to live in this world. Life itself!There are over 107 American lives that will never have any chance to experience life.
Measured against that, I think some contracting out and wage reductions aren''t too bad.
IMHO
Just a different prospective.




----------------​
How about the ones that come back?
What do you tell them?
Thanks a lot for what you did over there be we voted away your salary and benifits and job because we were scared of the company. We didnt want to fight for you because it could have been worse. Again thanks for your efforts.
 
OP
U

UAL_TECH

Guest
----------------
On 4/12/2003 10:46:34 AM atabuy wrote:


----------------
On 4/11/2003 4:25:24 PM UAL_TECH wrote:





---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Flying Public,
Do not come to me in the future and ask to fix a problem that you helped create!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------

As we have seen in the last few years leading up to 911, there has been great emphisis on training the next generation of AMT''s. Now that we are in this downturn, and AMT''s that are being ''released'' are leaving the industry, what is the future impact on aviation maintenance?

As the ''new'' "FAR145/OSV/MRO" personnel are picking up the slack (both in/out of USA). What is the calculated DPRM until they get up to a level of maintenance that is required of keeping these puppies in the air?


IMHO,
UT


----------------​
UT
What part of utopia do you live in?

Do you really think you can go through life without ever being affected by world changes. Do you think the sacrifices you make now, might give you a job for life, down the road?

I know that a persons problems, even if small, seem enormous to them.
I would ask you to maybe take a larger view of life and look around at what some people are sacrificing to allow us to live in this world. Life itself!There are over 107 American lives that will never have any chance to experience life.
Measured against that, I think some contracting out and wage reductions aren''t too bad.
IMHO
Just a different prospective.




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atabuy,
Why do you assume that I am not looking at the future? Most certainly, I am!!! How many lives will be sacrificed for profit??? What is the DPRM (Death Per Revenue Mile) for outsourcing? Get the Bean’O counters out for this projection and lets crunch some statistical numbers.
Are there maintenance components that can be performed safely by unskilled labor?Certainly!!!
But we cannot paint this picture with a broad brush (which is systemic of our management).

IMHO,
UT
 

atabuy

Senior
Oct 13, 2002
419
0
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On 4/12/2003 11:18:51 AM Bob Owens wrote:




----------------
On 4/12/2003 10:46:34 AM atabuy wrote:

UT
What part of utopia do you live in?

Do you really think you can go through life without ever being affected by world changes. Do you think the sacrifices you make now, might give you a job for life, down the road?

I know that a persons problems, even if small, seem enormous to them.
I would ask you to maybe take a larger view of life and look around at what some people are sacrificing to allow us to live in this world. Life itself!There are over 107 American lives that will never have any chance to experience life.
Measured against that, I think some contracting out and wage reductions aren''t too bad.
IMHO
Just a different prospective.




----------------​
How about the ones that come back?
What do you tell them?
Thanks a lot for what you did over there be we voted away your salary and benifits and job because we were scared of the company. We didnt want to fight for you because it could have been worse. Again thanks for your efforts.

----------------​
No Bob,
I think it is a lot better to tell them that we showed the company we would not bend and now you have no job to come back to. not!!

Come on Bob, This isn''t about profits. This is about survival.
I blame management because they don''t know how to get out of this, but when you look at most of the big ones, no one is doing that good.
I blame the unions for worrying more about dues, than the host that they live off of. If the host dies, so does the union in that host.
Union and management should be sitting down and working this out together. If that means everyone gives up something, the rank and file must go with it, until things get better.

Remember all the talk about jobs on the outside that paid as well as mechanics wages. Where are they. A lot of bitching, and no quitting.

Companies and unions have both good and bad qualities. They both take advantage of each other. It''s not the nature of the process. It is the nature of people to screw up the process.
 

atabuy

Senior
Oct 13, 2002
419
0
----------------
atabuy,
Why do you assume that I am not looking at the future? Most certainly, I am!!! How many lives will be sacrificed for profit??? What is the DPRM (Death Per Revenue Mile) for outsourcing? Get the Bean’O counters out for this projection and lets crunch some statistical numbers. 
Are there maintenance components that can be performed safely by unskilled labor?Certainly!!! 
But we cannot paint this picture with a broad brush (which is systemic of our management).

IMHO,
  UT

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UT,
Do you have statistics on deaths from outsourcing compared to inhouse work. I would like to see this info.
 

kcabpilot

Senior
Aug 22, 2002
271
0
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On 4/13/2003 8:23:39 AM atabuy wrote:

UT,
Do you have statistics on deaths from outsourcing compared to inhouse work. I would like to see this info.

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Unfortunately "deaths" attributed to outsourcing wouldn''t change anything. Only the bottom line will do that.

As Mechanics we SEE the results of outsourcing and we are the ones who deal with it (hopefully before the public ever knows about it) more and more on a daily basis. Take it from us - the quality of and control over outsourced maintenance is not up to the level that we strive to keep in our profession. There has been a good system in place and it has provided the industry with an admirable safety record. However - the rules are being changed, the checks and balances are being undermined and compromised.

Now if you or anyone else who is not a licensed professional Aircraft Mechanic feel that these compromises are okay and not a problem then the day is fast approaching when we will be handing our tools over to you and wishing you good luck.
 
OP
U

UAL_TECH

Guest
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On 4/13/2003 8:23:39 AM atabuy wrote:


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atabuy,

Why do you assume that I am not looking at the future? Most certainly, I am!!! How many lives will be sacrificed for profit??? What is the DPRM (Death Per Revenue Mile) for outsourcing? Get the Bean’O counters out for this projection and lets crunch some statistical numbers.
Are there maintenance components that can be performed safely by unskilled labor?Certainly!!!
But we cannot paint this picture with a broad brush (which is systemic of our management).

IMHO,
UT

----------------

UT,
Do you have statistics on deaths from outsourcing compared to inhouse work. I would like to see this info.

----------------
atabuy,
Apparently, no one has this info yet (at least publicly).
This will probably be addressed in the next few years though.
Were you working for UA after the ValuJet incident? We were hot to keep work in-house shortly after that. Remember?

-IMHO-

Take Care,

UAL_TECH
 

Bob Owens

Veteran
Sep 9, 2002
14,274
6,112
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On 4/13/2003 8:20:12 AM atabuy wrote:

No Bob,
I think it is a lot better to tell them that we showed the company we would not bend and now you have no job to come back to. not!!

Come on Bob, This isn''t about profits. This is about survival.
I blame management because they don''t know how to get out of this, but when you look at most of the big ones, no one is doing that good.

So the problem is systemic, then so is the solution. Paycuts by individuals will not fix the problem, just shift it.

I blame the unions for worrying more about dues, than the host that they live off of. If the host dies, so does the union in that host.

Whom do you consider the host, the member or the company?

Union and management should be sitting down and working this out together. If that means everyone gives up something, the rank and file must go with it, until things get better.

Thats the problem. Do you really think it will take till 2009 to turn around? This is not about survival, its about taking advantage of a bad situation. Lets say the company came to the Union with a reasonable proposal. Told the government "Our workers are willing to work with us on a year by year basis but the creditors are demanding long terms that have never been the norm in this industry. We need assistance due to the combined losses from the loss of the US Mail, which we can no longer carry, the economy, Iraq, fuel prices, and terrorism. If the government fails to help us get back on our feet another 75000+ airline workers plus an unknown number of other workers from related industries will become unemployed, hundreds of communites will suffer because they will no longer have access to air transportation and economic recovery could be thwarted. Competition within the industry will also decrease leading to higher air fares, less travel and a continued slump in the entire travel industry.

Remember all the talk about jobs on the outside that paid as well as mechanics wages. Where are they. A lot of bitching, and no quitting.

So far where I work its been ''wait and see". Plus the overall economy is not that good, it will likely recover before 2009. A lot of the older guys are bailing and one guy that I worked with for the last ten years did walk in and quit the other day. Even in this economy he found something he felt was better. There is more to this than losing current employees, there is the problem of attrition. As older workers retire the airlines will have trouble filling vacancies because prior to all this there was a shortage of mechanics. Recent events will not be filling up A&P schools and those that do go there are likely to be lured into other industries that do not make such personal demands and offer more stability and better pay.

Companies and unions have both good and bad qualities. They both take advantage of each other. It''s not the nature of the process. It is the nature of people to screw up the process.

Please clarify.

----------------​
 

atabuy

Senior
Oct 13, 2002
419
0
----------------

atabuy,
Apparently, no one has this info yet (at least publicly).
This will probably be addressed in the next few years though.
Were you working for UA after the ValuJet incident?  We were hot to keep work in-house shortly after that.  Remember?

-IMHO-

Take Care,

  UAL_TECH

----------------​
Are you speaking of oxygen canisters being loaded in the belly pits?
That had nothing to do with maintenence.

I have seen Ual mechanics who I would not let look at my lawn mower. Not being smart, but a license does not guarantee good work. Check out the mal practice in the medical field. And these guys have much more schooling than a mechanic.
And I''ve seen people who are great mechanics with no license.
The quality of the work is within each individual.
 

atabuy

Senior
Oct 13, 2002
419
0
----------------
On 4/13/2003 7:23:08 PM Bob Owens wrote:




----------------
On 4/13/2003 8:20:12 AM atabuy wrote:

No Bob,
I think it is a lot better to tell them that we showed the company we would not bend and now you have no job to come back to. not!!

Come on Bob, This isn''t about profits. This is about survival.
I blame management because they don''t know how to get out of this, but when you look at most of the big ones, no one is doing that good.

I blame the unions for worrying more about dues, than the host that they live off of. If the host dies, so does the union in that host.

Union and management should be sitting down and working this out together. If that means everyone gives up something, the rank and file must go with it, until things get better.


Remember all the talk about jobs on the outside that paid as well as mechanics wages. Where are they. A lot of bitching, and no quitting.

So far where I work its been ''wait and see". Plus the overall economy is not that good, it will likely recover before 2009. A lot of the older guys are bailing and one guy that I worked with for the last ten years did walk in and quit the other day. Even in this economy he found something he felt was better. There is more to this than losing current employees, there is the problem of attrition. As older workers retire the airlines will have trouble filling vacancies because prior to all this there was a shortage of mechanics. Recent events will not be filling up A&P schools and those that do go there are likely to be lured into other industries that do not make such personal demands and offer more stability and better pay.


----------------​


----------------​


Bob,
Back in the 90''s all the airlines had some of the best profits ever.
Was the problem we are having today the systemic problem of those times, or has something changed between then and now to just make it a problem today.

I think I can answer for you and you can correct me if I am wrong.

Before 911 we were already feeling some losses of revenue, due to the economy starting to fall.

911 created enough turmoil to stop business from flying as much. 80% of the airlines revenue.

Seat capacity increased due to low passenger demand.

Massive losses prompted airlines to reduced fares to just get people in the seats. Losses still mounted and U went BK, followed by Ual, and many other smaller airlines along the way.

Airline CEO''s never faced these type of problems in such a small amout of time and really had no idea of how to quickly change there model to compete against the airlines like luv who had never had a bit of excess fat in their workforce.
Sure they paid well but they could because of the ecomical way they operated. Luv was fine even in these times because it was business as usual.

U, Ual, AA, and many others were trying to deal with unions to cut wages, work rules and anything which could save the company money without really cleaning up their own management houses. Therefore a stalemate which only BK or the threat of abrogation could make unions deal.
A lot of wasted time as the money was running out.

Now AA is running out of time too. Better vote yes now and save BK lawyer fees and still give it up later.

Whom do you consider the host, the member or the company?
[/B]

The company is always the host. Labor as stated by one union official justs chokes the chicken enough to get the golden egg.

Thats the problem. Do you really think it will take till 2009 to turn around? This is not about survival, its about taking advantage of a bad situation. Lets say the company came to the Union with a reasonable proposal. Told the government "Our workers are willing to work with us on a year by year basis but the creditors are demanding long terms that have never been the norm in this industry. We need assistance due to the combined losses from the loss of the US Mail, which we can no longer carry, the economy, Iraq, fuel prices, and terrorism. If the government fails to help us get back on our feet another 75000+ airline workers plus an unknown number of other workers from related industries will become unemployed, hundreds of communites will suffer because they will no longer have access to air transportation and economic recovery could be thwarted. Competition within the industry will also decrease leading to higher air fares, less travel and a continued slump in the entire travel industry.

Where is your crystal ball. What year will things be good again. I think Carty already has some type of profit sharing if certain conditions are met for AA. Up to 10% of some part of the profits.

Companies and unions have both good and bad qualities. They both take advantage of each other. It''s not the nature of the process. It is the nature of people to screw up the process.

Please clarify.

In a perfect world workers and companies would work together and all would prosper. In the real world there are about equal amounts of asses in both parties. Enough to make working together a moot point.
The companies policy is to make the union work for every negotiated item they get. Unions strike, or work safe to get even more, and when a real crisis like 911 comes along, there is no trust to come to any type of deal.
 
OP
U

UAL_TECH

Guest
----------------
On 4/13/2003 10:49:04 PM atabuy wrote:


----------------


atabuy,
Apparently, no one has this info yet (at least publicly).
This will probably be addressed in the next few years though.
Were you working for UA after the ValuJet incident?  We were hot to keep work in-house shortly after that.  Remember?

-IMHO-

Take Care,

  UAL_TECH

----------------​
Are you speaking of oxygen canisters being loaded in the belly pits?
That had nothing to do with maintenence.

I have seen Ual mechanics who I would not let look at my lawn mower. Not being smart, but a license does not guarantee good work. Check out the mal practice in the medical field. And these guys have much more schooling than a mechanic.
And I''ve seen people who are great mechanics with no license.
The quality of the work is within each individual.

----------------

Atabuy,
I agree (in part), as I also know management people that I would not allow overseeing my lawn care.

There is much to be said for ''walking to the floor'' hands-on maintenance.
I TRULY "IMHO" do not like to see UAL (as an industry leader) relinquish our ability to perform immediate corrections/recommendations to maintenance related items through our technicians, and engineering staff. Throughout our history, we have corrected maintenance anomalies ''ON-THE-SPOT'', and have had our engineering solutions adopted by the FAA, and OEM. In many cases we have ''invented'' maintenance solutions that have benefited the industry. We have formed a group of individuals that truly believe in ''Safety is Number One'', and I "IMHO" perceive an industry vacuum for the services that we have provided.
Of course, the ''media'' will always focus on our deficiencies without recognizing the phenomenal gains that we ''as a company'' have provided to the industry at large.

This is what I infer with my simplistic ''outsourcing'' post.

IMHO,
UT
 

oldpilot

Newbie
Aug 22, 2002
14
0
Interesting discussion you are having here. I agree the company will lose some of the advangages of doing all maint. work inhouse. However, all those other carriers that outsource most or all of their heavy maint. are flying just fine. Their airplanes are not falling out of the sky. How do you answer that issue? Curious.
 

Boomer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
1,143
72
Seems the US Government issued a grant to study the issue of outsourcing. The finished study as well as the draft report are available.

I''m "out of pocket" at the present time but will send the link(s) ASAP.