All unions must eventually support ALPA

sabre

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
161
0
'92 is what Management The Liar wants us to look at. ALPA deserves no help but considering our interest, there is no alternative to this type of aggressive Icahn type management.

If we don't show our support then it will be '92 all over again.

love
 

Biffeman

Senior
Nov 25, 2002
447
0
www.usaviation.com
It happened OLDIE! Are you in denial?

So you are telling all the posters on here that the company did not do any of those things to them?

Are you telling me we did not go on strike for five days?
Are you telling me pilots did not get paid? I have a good friend who at the time was an F28 Captain, he did not fly and got paid because your union made a deal with the company not to honor the picket line.

Are you telling me that US Air did not go to court and get an injuction against the AFA to order them back to work?

If that is your stance, you need to come back to reality.

To any CWA or Fleet agents on this board, inform oldie of what went on in 1992, and what the company did to you!
 

delldude

Veteran
Oct 29, 2002
28,208
5,878
Downrange
www.youtube.com
this is going to take massive doses of hug therapy and encounter sessions for most IAM mechanics.heres to '92!
 

Biffeman

Senior
Nov 25, 2002
447
0
www.usaviation.com
1992, ALPA take concessions and then all the non-union workers at U lose there vacation, sick time, OJI bank. 40% of the full time workers down graded to part-time, mass layoffs, pensions frozen, hours cut from 40 to 25 hours, lose family coverage when downgraded, forced to pay $300 a month for insurance, where was ALPA then?

During the cooling off period, pilots clean planes when Uility does not show up due to working short handed.
1992 Mechanic and Related Stirke, AFA honors picket line, judge orders them to work.

ALPA makes secret deal with company not to honor the picket line and all pilots will get paid regardless if they fly or not. US grounds all the F28s, F100s, DC-9s, and MD-80s, all pilots get paid. Some pilots even come in on their own time to clean airplanes and run parts.

Karma, ALPA brought this upon themselves, let them solve it themselves. I for one remember 1992.
 
OP
S

sabre

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
161
0
Listen to the ALPA code a phone and you will get a clear picture that management is violating or will be violating much of ALPA's contract with blatant disregard.
This is bigger than the Pilot pension and if all the unions don't stand up and support ALPA then management will pluck us all off one by one after they go after ALPA.
ALPA's the big boy but it will need whatever public and other support it can muster.
Whether you have love or not for pilots, if you, the IAM, AFA, or CWA don't offer any support possible then all unions will get plucked off one by one.
Whatever the case, there may be a long fight with a breached contract, and we can either support management the Liar, or ALPA. If we support management then don't be surpised when management the Liar turns back to you and says Gothcha!
love
 

oldiebutgoody

Veteran
Aug 23, 2002
2,627
945
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/5/2003 11:33:26 AM Biffeman wrote:

1992, ALPA take concessions and then all the non-union workers at U lose there vacation, sick time, OJI bank. 40% of the full time workers down graded to part-time, mass layoffs, pensions frozen, hours cut from 40 to 25 hours, lose family coverage when downgraded, forced to pay $300 a month for insurance, where was ALPA then?

During the cooling off period, pilots clean planes when Uility does not show up due to working short handed.
1992 Mechanic and Related Stirke, AFA honors picket line, judge orders them to work.

ALPA makes secret deal with company not to honor the picket line and all pilots will get paid regardless if they fly or not. US grounds all the F28s, F100s, DC-9s, and MD-80s, all pilots get paid. Some pilots even come in on their own time to clean airplanes and run parts.

Karma, ALPA brought this upon themselves, let them solve it themselves. I for one remember 1992.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Biffeman,
Gat a life. It dodn't happen. If you can prove it, then name some names.
 

diogenes

Veteran
Aug 22, 2002
2,515
0
sabre,

Theoretically, of course, you're right. Had all the unions on this property presented a united front, we would have experienced a different outcome.

Having said that, the unions have been their own worst enemy, and the gravest error is elitism. While one immediately attributes that sin to ALPA, I can assure you it is alive and well at the IAM, as well. Look at the ongoing mech vs. fleet battle, district vs. local, etc. I suspect there is a res vs. ATO subtext at CWA, as well.

Having perused the Feb 03 edition of Airline Pilot, ALPA's inhouse magazine, I see no indication of ALPA pursuing a 'all for one, one for all' agenda.

You'd think after the latest concessionary debacle at U, we'd learn.

Apparently not.
 

delldude

Veteran
Oct 29, 2002
28,208
5,878
Downrange
www.youtube.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/5/2003 11:42:28 AM oldiebutgoody wrote:

[blockquote]
----------------
On 2/5/2003 11:33:26 AM Biffeman wrote:

1992, ALPA take concessions and then all the non-union workers at U lose there vacation, sick time, OJI bank. 40% of the full time workers down graded to part-time, mass layoffs, pensions frozen, hours cut from 40 to 25 hours, lose family coverage when downgraded, forced to pay $300 a month for insurance, where was ALPA then?

During the cooling off period, pilots clean planes when Uility does not show up due to working short handed.
1992 Mechanic and Related Stirke, AFA honors picket line, judge orders them to work.

ALPA makes secret deal with company not to honor the picket line and all pilots will get paid regardless if they fly or not. US grounds all the F28s, F100s, DC-9s, and MD-80s, all pilots get paid. Some pilots even come in on their own time to clean airplanes and run parts.

Karma, ALPA brought this upon themselves, let them solve it themselves. I for one remember 1992.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Biffeman,
Gat a life. It dodn't happen. If you can prove it, then name some names.
----------------
[/blockquote]
funny thing there my friend....i remeber loads of footage on the telly of pilots working through the mech /related strike in '92...
 

diogenes

Veteran
Aug 22, 2002
2,515
0
Folks, this round is lost. Management caught the right politico-socio-economic environment, and landed a haymaker.

Going forward, it would be wise to;

1. Have all unions agree among themselves to a basic 'Bill of Rights' for all employees. Among those rights should be a framework for wages, pensions, health care, and a safe work environment. Also to protect collective bargaining, and improved means of enforcing contracts.

2. Having agreed upon the framework, work within each union, and with all other unions, to protect that framework. No divide and conquer. No elitism. All for one; one for all.

3. Politically, concentrate on bread and butter issues, and cultivate friends in both parties. Understand the membership is on all sides of social issues such as abortion, prayer in school, or gun control, and stay out of those arenas. Focus on the economic issues we join the union for in the first place.

Just a thought.

PS;

Biffe, I always enjoy your posts. I understand your concerns regarding 92, and I would not support a unilateral 'rally round ALPA' at this stage.

However, I would endorse ALPA, IAM, CWA and TWU sitting down and negotiating a mutually agreeable partnership going forward. Otherwise, the rallying cry of '92' will still be alive 10 years from now, much like the Irish hold grievances 500 years old against the British. The only ones to profit in that scenario, as we have seen, is management.

An injury to one is an injury to all.

All for one; one for all.
 

Biffeman

Senior
Nov 25, 2002
447
0
www.usaviation.com
auto were you a mainline pilot in 1992? If so and you did not fly, did you get paid? I know the pilots did, but oldie is under the impression, none of this happened.
 

MCORORES

Senior
Aug 19, 2002
317
0
www.usaviation.com
1992...the year I like to refer to BEING BENT OVER BIG TIME!!!!! What did my group recieve in 1992, lets see a frozen pension, frozen payscale for 7 years with no cost of living raises, a week less of vacation that I had to put in my sick bank and god forbid if I used all 5 days. If I did use the 5 days it was level one on the way out the door. Think that covers it in a nut shell. What did I get in return, a deposit into my 401k and a check after 5 years if memory serves me correct for about $400.00 dollars. Bascially the company made out on the positive side big time with what I gave up and got in return. Where was the union groups when at that time we were non union? Did they give us any support??? No. I understand the frustration on the pension issue with the pilots but sorry...have no sympathy at all. My group has been there and done that as I am sure other groups also have. Chip brings up the issue of a 58year old pilot approaching retirement age. Well some of my fellow res and ato agents went through the same scenerio in 1992.
 

autofixer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
1,804
241
www.usaviation.com
1992: I did not clean planes (I don't know anyone who did--maybe management pilots), I did not clean floors, I didn't even fly! Again it is appears that a few pilots are being used as the example for the entire pilot group. My dad was IAM (non-airline) and he would have kicked my arse for walking across a pickett line in 1992.
 

fadec

Newbie
Aug 20, 2002
7
1
Yes, Biffeman, I remember 1992 also. I remember the AFA supporting us when we were on strike. I remember flt attendants coming out to the picket lines, bringing us coffee and food and offering us their words of support and encouragement and I DEFINENTLY remember how the pilots DID NOT support us and accepted a deal from the company to receive pay whether they flew or not. The mechanic and related did not strike lightly or on a whim, but over issues that meant enough to us that we were willing to take a chance at losing our jobs when we walked off. ALPA did not respect our group enough to support us and did everything that they could to feather their own nest and now they want us to pull together and support them.
I can understand the comments from people who say that we (all groups) should pull together and we should! We should continue to pull together to ensure the survival of our company and the vast majority of us will. But that doesn't mean collectively taking it in the shorts even more, just so ALPA can keep their pension.
 

A320 Driver

Veteran
Aug 24, 2002
3,358
2,319
www.usaviation.com
As I recall the strike lasted only 4 days and I do remember taking a paycut later in 92 or 93 that lasted for a year to cover the cost of it. I never crossed a line either but I think the pilots were paid for trips missed(I was on off days). As much as I appreciate Sabre's comments please remember that this is our fight to win or loose. We may not have a choice in the end but I can promise that the company WILL know that they've been in a fight. As to whether or not the company will come after the other work groups, remember that Siegal's comments regarding the last half of this year have been very negative. This was how he started out talking obout our pension, like it was choking the airline or something. Funny there was no mention of it during negotiations. He's waiving some side-letter around that was signed by our MEC that startes that he will replace our pension should it be terminated. It's probably no more good than the 1113 letter that he gave us last summer. All this being said, my hope is that we can force the company to seek other alternatives to terminating our pension. As I've stated before this is an ALPA/company problem.

A320 Driver