All voting should be stopped

MiAAmi

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Aug 21, 2002
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Since the conditions of the T/A''s have been changed and voting has already begun all votes already cast should be void and a new vote should be started. If Carty wasn''t such a LIAR and had stuck to his word we wouldn''t have this fiasco. Carty stated in his message to employees that the T/A''s would not be re-negotiated, then turns around and offers changes to the T/A. Carty is joke
 

RV4

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Aug 20, 2002
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On 4/10/2003 12:59:53 PM eolesen wrote:

Do you have any idea what is behind the April 15th date? I don't.

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I heard it has something to do with $150 Million to the pension fund and some other due payment that would not be made if any group failed to ratify.

I do not pretend it is an arbitrary date, but it appears to be a very costly demand.
 

RV4

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Aug 20, 2002
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On 4/10/2003 12:46:16 PM FWAAA wrote:

This ain't a game.

It would be terribly funny if it didn't reflect the employees' demands that management go ahead and file for Chapter 11 relief, throwing the very future of American Airlines into doubt.

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You have it all wrong Pal.

It is the company demand under threat of bankruptcy that these votes be finished by April 15th that is causing the whole process to deteriorate.

Had management not made that demand, the process would have went normal and with language in hands.
 

FA Mikey

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Aug 19, 2002
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I think there fear is that too many people voted NO in anger. That the company feels they can get a some changes, through fear and this worthless carrot on a stick routine they are pulling now.
 

FWAAA

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Jan 5, 2003
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The TAs have yet to be ratified or rejected, yet there is already demand for a "Do-Over."

This ain''t a game.

It would be terribly funny if it didn''t reflect the employees'' demands that management go ahead and file for Chapter 11 relief, throwing the very future of American Airlines into doubt.
 

FWAAA

Veteran
Jan 5, 2003
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On 4/10/2003 1:04:02 PM RV4 wrote:




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On 4/10/2003 12:59:53 PM eolesen wrote:

Do you have any idea what is behind the April 15th date? I don''t.

----------------​
I heard it has something to do with $150 Million to the pension fund and some other due payment that would not be made if any group failed to ratify.

I do not pretend it is an arbitrary date, but it appears to be a very costly demand.

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I thought the April 15 deadline was relevant because of grace periods contained in agreements for AA debt of which AA is currently taking advantage - but I may be mistaken. I think AA may have delayed payment on some debts (technical default but ok if cured during the grace period). Those grace periods may extend to 4/15 or 4/16.
 

RV4

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Aug 20, 2002
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On 4/10/2003 1:12:10 PM FWAAA wrote:
I thought the April 15 deadline was relevant because of grace periods contained in agreements for AA debt of which AA is currently taking advantage - but I may be mistaken. I think AA may have delayed payment on some debts (technical default but ok if cured during the grace period). Those grace periods may extend to 4/15 or 4/16.

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Was it worth it?
 

RV4

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Aug 20, 2002
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What the HELL is the UNION allowing management to dictate their voting procedure and time line for in the first place? If they cannot even manage the Airline, why allow them to now dictate your voting timeline?

Something is really strange here.

Maybe it's just me, I don't know.

I hear the TWU was served with a Temporary Restraining Order to stop the voting based on a By-Law requirement that members a giving "Final Language" for thirty days prior to voting. This was placed in the By-Laws to emulate AMFA, that is why they are incapacitated by the whole thing. You CANNOT implement craft union philosophies into an industrial union structure. This is what you get when such a stupid move is attempted!
 
Both make sense. It's a better reason than being tax day...

Given that this was a hard and fast date, why did it take eight weeks from the time the company provided $ amounts and specific contract modifications to get to the point of a TA?

Something more substantial should have been done (and both sides share that responsibility) during early March, rather than waiting until the Apr.15 date was upon us. At the very least, there would have been time to put a second proposal up for vote.
 
Do you have any idea what is behind the April 15th date? I don't.

My guess is that it is either related to an agreement with the lenders who are lined up to provide us with DIP financing, or a payment that is either due or already in default. There's been no public announcement of a payment being in default, but it is certainly possible.

Before you assume that it is an arbitrary deadline, remember that UAL and US Airways both filed in order to avoid an involuntary filing by creditors who were in default.

Filing for Ch.11 is bad enough, but you certainly don't want someone filing on your behalf.
 

planemech669

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Aug 20, 2002
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----------------
On 4/10/2003 1:04:02 PM RV4 wrote:




----------------
On 4/10/2003 12:59:53 PM eolesen wrote:

Do you have any idea what is behind the April 15th date? I don''t.

----------------​
I heard it has something to do with $150 Million to the pension fund and some other due payment that would not be made if any group failed to ratify.

I do not pretend it is an arbitrary date, but it appears to be a very costly demand.

----------------​
It''s only a costly demand because of the union inept leadership and inability to pull their head out of their collective third point of contact to get this moving. I''ve always been amazed that with all the advances in todays world, such a thing as a simple yea or nea vote can take so long and create so many whiny babies at the same time.
 

FA Mikey

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
4,421
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goldwatermiller08.com
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On 4/10/2003 12:42:46 PM RV4 wrote:


What the HELL is the UNION allowing management to dictate their voting procedure and time line for in the first place? If they cannot even manage the Airline, why allow them to now dictate your voting timeline?

Something is really strange here.

Maybe it''s just me, I don''t know.

I hear the TWU was served with a Temporary Restraining Order to stop the voting based on a By-Law requirement that members a giving "Final Language" for thirty days prior to voting. This was placed in the By-Laws to emulate AMFA, that is why they are incapacitated by the whole thing. You CANNOT implement craft union philosophies into an industrial union structure. This is what you get when such a stupid move is attempted!

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Our constitution was re written not many years ago. Normaly APFA requires a 30 day voting spread. The BOD correctly noted that in special circumstance that a change like the one voted on, and approved was just and legal.
 

AA80Driver

Advanced
Jan 16, 2003
111
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On 4/10/2003 1:13:35 PM eolesen wrote:

Given that this was a hard and fast date, why did it take eight weeks from the time the company provided $ amounts and specific contract modifications to get to the point of a TA?

Something more substantial should have been done (and both sides share that responsibility) during early March, rather than waiting until the Apr.15 date was upon us. At the very least, there would have been time to put a second proposal up for vote.

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Eolesen,

The TA was negotiated in less than 8 weeks. Whose fault is it that the company waited until it was too late? I don''t think the unions share in the blame on this one. It looks to me like they conducted themselves pretty responsibly. If things were that bad, why did Mr Carty blow off the first few "active engagement" meetings?

Keep in mind that the APA had been in negotiations since 8/31/01.

Here''s the timeline for the APA:


August 31, 2001 - AA/APA collective bargaining agreement became amendable.

September 11, 2001 - Terrorist attacks against the United States. AMR begins furloughing pilots and other employees.

January 2002 - APA begins regular “monitoring†of AMR financial health to include some non-public data.

June 13, 2002 - Former CFO Tom Horton leaves along with a handful of employees from AMR’s finance department. Replaced by Jeff Campbell.

August 10, 2002 - US Airways seeks bankruptcy protection.

Fall - Build-up toward eventual war with Iraq.

October 2002 - Fall APA Board meeting. APA retains bankruptcy counsel.

October 2002 - Internal APA financial review team begins more detailed examination of AMR’s financial health.

December 2002 - United Airlines seeks bankruptcy protection. UAL pilots accept 29% pay cut.

December 2002 - AMR asks APFA and TWU to defer pay raises; offers to “open the books†on AMR finances.

December 2002 - US Airways negotiates second round of givebacks with employees under threat of liquidation.

January 10, 2003 - APA forms the Financial Analysis and Review Team consisting of KPMG, SH&E, R.W. Mann & Co., and various APA committee members.

January 15, 2003 - APA’s financial review team has first official meeting with counterparts at AMR.

January 16, 2003 - AMR CEO Don Carty announces “Active Engagement†initiative.

January 20, 2003 - First meeting under “Active Engagement†initiative.

January - Buildup to war continues; fuel prices up sharply; “orange alert†causes 3% revenue decline.

January 27, 2003 - Special APA Board meeting to review preliminary results of financial review. Appoints new Negotiating Committee.

January 31, 2003 - US Airways moves to terminate pilot pension plan.

February 7, 2003 - First time AMR sets specific financial targets ($1.8 billion total; $660 million from pilots).

February 15, 2003 - APA retains investment bankers Keilen & Co to assist with negotiations.

February 17, 2003 - UAL moves to terminate labor contracts

February 19, 2003 - APA gets first presentation of comprehensive restructuring plan.

February 24, 2003 - Fall Board meeting. CEO Don Carty addresses APA Board in closed session. States negotiations for debtor-in-possession (DIP) financing underway and some vendors putting AMR on cash basis. Sets a deadline of March 31st for completion of contract negotiations. APA’s financial review team confirms the severity of AMR’s financial health.

March 10, 2003 - First public report that AMR may be searching for DIP financing.

March 14, 2003 - AMR’s financial deterioration accelerates due to war fears. AMR tells all three unions that if tentative agreements are not reached by March 31st and ratified by April 14th, then AMR will immediately file for Chapter 11.

March 20, 2003 - Iraqi was commences.

March 22, 2003 - APA Board meets in extended session to conclude contract negotiations.

March 26, 2003 - UAL reaches tentative agreement with pilots

March 31, 2003 - Under the threat of imminent bankruptcy filing, APA reaches tentative agreement with AMR.
 

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