[FONT face=Verdana size=3]What do you think Chip? 2000 plus laid off this week, TPA closed, MCO Res closing, the company looking for a unanimous response from the unions on additional givebacks;moral at its lowest Ive ever seen...you still think this thing can be turned around?[BR]I think the unanimous response from the unions will be the paper version of the single finger salute.Nobody I work with will,even the staunchest yes voter from the last round has shifted to a solid NO.[BR]Youre around the system,how are the attitudes youre encountering.what do people you run into think? will they give it up again?[BR]I don''t.Ill bet the other airlines,as broke as they are find the money for the pieces of us they want.[BR]that is our ultimate fate,our once proud airline parceled out our people scattered to the wind and the corporate leadership exits with golden parachutes.[BR][BR]meet the new boss, younger than the old boss and apparently just as much of a heel as the old one too[/FONT]
Any thoughts Chip?
- Thread starter ForkTime2002
- Start date
I just returned from 27 hour four day trip and last night, for the first in about two years, I did not turn on my computer and went out with our crew for a holiday dinner. In addition, later today and Saturday I'm flying a two day trip, which will further limit my on-line time.
During the past 72 hours much has occurred at US Airways, it will take a little time to digest, however, I believe Dave Siegel is very bright and two steps ahead of labor.
In my opinion, management has an agenda and an ulterior motive. Siegel’s proposed cuts, announced immediately after TPA hangar and MCO reservation facility closures, which hurt the IAM and CWA, are too drastic and will likely not be approved by probably every union. Then on the surface it would appear the company is on a one-way path to a fragmentation/liquidation, but this doesn’t make sense considering the company's restructuring success.
The company has tirelessly worked to obtain with $1.3 billion in cuts, $425 to $475 million in lessors cuts, worked with GECAS agreeing to further restructure debt in 1 to 3 weeks, RJ deals for 88 affiliate carrier RJs at Midway and Mesa, reportedly has a deal with Canadair and Embraer for 200 RJ deliveries and 300 options, MDA, the domestic alliance, the accelerated plan to join the Star alliance, and the loan guarantee.
With all this progress does it make sense Siegel wants or will liquidate the airline?
According to the CWA Siegel told the labor leaders the company wants a labor decision by Monday, December 2 and the board will address US Airways' future on Tuesday, December 3.
In my opinion, some or all of the unions will object to management’s proposal. Then at Tuesday’s board meeting, the board may notify the PBGC that it is providing a 60-day notice to terminate the defined benefit pension plan for ALPA, AFA, IAM, and the TWU. This move would undoubtedly qualify US Airways for the loan guarantee, the company would save over $500 million per year or $3.1 billion in pension contributions from 2003 through 2009, and provide over $1.8 billion in annual cuts during the loan guarantee period. Furthermore, let’s not forget the company filed a motion with the bankruptcy court last Friday asking for a one-month extension to file its final POR and confirmation statement. 60 days from the December 3 is January 31. Coincidental or part of the plan?
Meanwhile, “labor friendly†Dave then would keep good on his promise to not seek further cuts through the bankruptcy court because the pension termination would be handled by the PBGC. Furthermore, with the S.1113 letter and the protocol required to undue labor contracts in bankruptcy court, it would not be easy for Siegel to go down this path and I understand there are 7 or 8 steps that must be met.
At this point, the unions will have three options: negotiate between December 3 and December 9 for productivity changes, have your pension termianted, or a hybrid where there are a combination of pension/productivity cuts.
Regardless, the cuts will come one way or another. Either management obtains productivity cuts or will legally terminate the pensions with the PBGC. These cuts are required to obtain the loan guarantee, final credit facility payment, and equity investment, required to emerge from bankruptcy and there is nothing the unions can do to stop these actions.
Chip
During the past 72 hours much has occurred at US Airways, it will take a little time to digest, however, I believe Dave Siegel is very bright and two steps ahead of labor.
In my opinion, management has an agenda and an ulterior motive. Siegel’s proposed cuts, announced immediately after TPA hangar and MCO reservation facility closures, which hurt the IAM and CWA, are too drastic and will likely not be approved by probably every union. Then on the surface it would appear the company is on a one-way path to a fragmentation/liquidation, but this doesn’t make sense considering the company's restructuring success.
The company has tirelessly worked to obtain with $1.3 billion in cuts, $425 to $475 million in lessors cuts, worked with GECAS agreeing to further restructure debt in 1 to 3 weeks, RJ deals for 88 affiliate carrier RJs at Midway and Mesa, reportedly has a deal with Canadair and Embraer for 200 RJ deliveries and 300 options, MDA, the domestic alliance, the accelerated plan to join the Star alliance, and the loan guarantee.
With all this progress does it make sense Siegel wants or will liquidate the airline?
According to the CWA Siegel told the labor leaders the company wants a labor decision by Monday, December 2 and the board will address US Airways' future on Tuesday, December 3.
In my opinion, some or all of the unions will object to management’s proposal. Then at Tuesday’s board meeting, the board may notify the PBGC that it is providing a 60-day notice to terminate the defined benefit pension plan for ALPA, AFA, IAM, and the TWU. This move would undoubtedly qualify US Airways for the loan guarantee, the company would save over $500 million per year or $3.1 billion in pension contributions from 2003 through 2009, and provide over $1.8 billion in annual cuts during the loan guarantee period. Furthermore, let’s not forget the company filed a motion with the bankruptcy court last Friday asking for a one-month extension to file its final POR and confirmation statement. 60 days from the December 3 is January 31. Coincidental or part of the plan?
Meanwhile, “labor friendly†Dave then would keep good on his promise to not seek further cuts through the bankruptcy court because the pension termination would be handled by the PBGC. Furthermore, with the S.1113 letter and the protocol required to undue labor contracts in bankruptcy court, it would not be easy for Siegel to go down this path and I understand there are 7 or 8 steps that must be met.
At this point, the unions will have three options: negotiate between December 3 and December 9 for productivity changes, have your pension termianted, or a hybrid where there are a combination of pension/productivity cuts.
Regardless, the cuts will come one way or another. Either management obtains productivity cuts or will legally terminate the pensions with the PBGC. These cuts are required to obtain the loan guarantee, final credit facility payment, and equity investment, required to emerge from bankruptcy and there is nothing the unions can do to stop these actions.
Chip
Chip, Nice job of putting this into perspective. I think you may have hit the nail on the head regarding the pension fund being the actual targeted cut of choice...that's massive as well as immediately tangible.
However, Like most whom have been following this latest turn of events closely...The part that fries everyone is the reversal on trying to keep things as Friendly as possible. sure this is a business....nobody expects The Waltons...but nor should they be subjected to Tyranical treatment either.
Dave came to us with talk of changes regarding U's horrible culture....and many end roads were being made....if in fact it was only from his personal efforts to communicate better with the employee's.
Dave may be working to save the airline , like any dedicated CEO should have been doing since prior to the first merger....but what he has managed to do is anger thousands and shred every once of credibility he had slowly accumulated with us to date. This I find very dis-heartening..and so should he in retrospect. Trust is hard earned...and easily lost in this company. The track record is lacking....and he just extended the losing streak by a damn sight.
TPA was stormed by Jack-Booted Nazi's for lack of better terms....and human beings were treated like garbage. This is no way to ralley the troops behind any proposed plans..or create a favorable enviroment for progress on any issues here forward. I hope Friendly Dave knows what he's doing on this issue? Remember that survivors of the masacre will transfer to other stations....and continue to live to tell the tale.
TPA should have been afforded the exact same respect and treatment as the good folks in MCO Res were afforded.....it doesn't make the pain of losing a job or relocating to another city/station any better...but at least it's treating them with the respect that any good person would show a common dog.
I hope that somehow something has been learned from all of this.....sure many in labor will say that they learned not to trust management a long time ago....but I hope Dave has learned something about honesty and credibilty the hard-way....or is at least prepared to learn.
I'm willing to bet....that if Dave's targeted need all along was suspension of the pension?...instead of threatening everyone with harsh draconian measures and out-sourcing of jobs....he might have gotten it a bit easier by being straight up with us? Sure many are angry..and sure many are ready to say the hell with this place too...but deep down nobody wants to see the airline scuttled , especially if there is a reasonable avenue to take to save it for the majority. With deep regret , that window of opprotunity may have come crashing closed with the results of less than honest and dignafied treatment of two major work groups. Only time will tell.....and time is running short for us all.
However, Like most whom have been following this latest turn of events closely...The part that fries everyone is the reversal on trying to keep things as Friendly as possible. sure this is a business....nobody expects The Waltons...but nor should they be subjected to Tyranical treatment either.
Dave came to us with talk of changes regarding U's horrible culture....and many end roads were being made....if in fact it was only from his personal efforts to communicate better with the employee's.
Dave may be working to save the airline , like any dedicated CEO should have been doing since prior to the first merger....but what he has managed to do is anger thousands and shred every once of credibility he had slowly accumulated with us to date. This I find very dis-heartening..and so should he in retrospect. Trust is hard earned...and easily lost in this company. The track record is lacking....and he just extended the losing streak by a damn sight.
TPA was stormed by Jack-Booted Nazi's for lack of better terms....and human beings were treated like garbage. This is no way to ralley the troops behind any proposed plans..or create a favorable enviroment for progress on any issues here forward. I hope Friendly Dave knows what he's doing on this issue? Remember that survivors of the masacre will transfer to other stations....and continue to live to tell the tale.
TPA should have been afforded the exact same respect and treatment as the good folks in MCO Res were afforded.....it doesn't make the pain of losing a job or relocating to another city/station any better...but at least it's treating them with the respect that any good person would show a common dog.
I hope that somehow something has been learned from all of this.....sure many in labor will say that they learned not to trust management a long time ago....but I hope Dave has learned something about honesty and credibilty the hard-way....or is at least prepared to learn.
I'm willing to bet....that if Dave's targeted need all along was suspension of the pension?...instead of threatening everyone with harsh draconian measures and out-sourcing of jobs....he might have gotten it a bit easier by being straight up with us? Sure many are angry..and sure many are ready to say the hell with this place too...but deep down nobody wants to see the airline scuttled , especially if there is a reasonable avenue to take to save it for the majority. With deep regret , that window of opprotunity may have come crashing closed with the results of less than honest and dignafied treatment of two major work groups. Only time will tell.....and time is running short for us all.
- Thread Starter
- #6
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]
[P][BR][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]You were right on target Pacemaker. He spun it alright.[BR]So now dave is a conniving shyster offering a bat in the knees or a molar extraction with a pair of pliers and no novocane,hes so friendly.......[/FONT][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]I said it in the first post,no way no how anyone on the property eats this crap sandwich.You guys live for the pension,going to smile while he diddles with your loot for the golden years?My pension has been iced for years,what do I have to lose[BR]Midway is dead man, they aint gonna be back.MDA is a paper creation...a carrot dangled in front of the mule to keep it moving.Keep thinking someone is gonna finance 100's of baby jets for this shrinking regional.[BR][/FONT][/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]
[P][BR][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]You were right on target Pacemaker. He spun it alright.[BR]So now dave is a conniving shyster offering a bat in the knees or a molar extraction with a pair of pliers and no novocane,hes so friendly.......[/FONT][FONT face=Times New Roman size=3]I said it in the first post,no way no how anyone on the property eats this crap sandwich.You guys live for the pension,going to smile while he diddles with your loot for the golden years?My pension has been iced for years,what do I have to lose[BR]Midway is dead man, they aint gonna be back.MDA is a paper creation...a carrot dangled in front of the mule to keep it moving.Keep thinking someone is gonna finance 100's of baby jets for this shrinking regional.[BR][/FONT][/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]
usfliboi
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 2,070
- 270
I agree an alterior motive exist, i feel he is trying to get cost a rock bottom to sell! I dont think for one moment he want to or will split whats left of this company apart.In the end one way or the other this company will be sold! Its all a prep session! Then Dave walks.Second verse same as the first!
delldude
Veteran
100% chip...my view also.....everyone thinks were out of cash-going to liquidate....if we had no cash would you spend what little you had left relocating parts/services/inventories from closed shops or maintenence checks?no...doesn't make sense....remember when DCA was shut down and how our cash flow was screwed up?you couldn't get blankets or magazines or pillows on flights at first.they cancelled every little nickel and dime thing to DRASTICALLY save EVERY cent...i think if we were in that type scenario you'd see this again.i will admit they are being careful and frugal now but not anything like we saw then.
Chip,
I do not have the time you do to research these items , however it seems to me that Dave is taking us down a one-way road. Yes we are cutting costs....but we are also cutting revenue at the same lightning pace, so at least what I see in my corner of the furloughed world is no change in our basic problem. We cut 300 mil.in costs....while we also cut 300 mil. in revenue.
It did not start on 9-11....I remember sitting in line at Boston Logan in a 73 going to FLA looking at the line ahead of us. U had twice the number of planes going than the rest of the airlines.....only problem was the rest of them were doing that run in 75's and 76's. Half the cost twice the Pax.(Not exact. generalizing my #'s)
I am just a dumb Pilot, but it doesn't take too many brains to see the problem with that picture. On the plus side...We always went full. and left people at the gate.
Along comes Dave, Huge cuts, cost savings..Yes. But we pull out of BWI almost completly?! Drop lots of routes etc. etc. The excuse was that FLA is a low revenue route......B#LLS**t. It was a low rev route simply because our managment did not have enough sense to run 10 large A/C rather than 20 small ones!! However we must have one up on AirTran and Southwest since we sabotaged their revenue model by giving them all those unprofitable routes. Have you seen Southwests schedule out of BWI? Looks like our old one....Nope no money there, nary a bit.
I though I saw some silly money losing things before 9-11 but after sitting back and watching the fiasco over the last year....Holy Cow!!
As for RJ's being the savior....I used to be in that world also....Trust me on this, passengers would much rather be on a 20 yr old 73 rather than on a new RJ. Just go down to the express gates in plain clothes and sit and listen!! Something that airline managment hasn't done in a long time. If the passenger has a choice (and they do) they will choose the 73 EVERY time.
U is a basket case....and getting worse. If you are not looking for another job Chip you are being foolish and unrealistic. I am 99% sure you will be joining me on the street in the near future.
As for U's unique corporate transaction..... I will bet 50 bucks that it doesn't involve the employees going with it! EVERY other airline now has enough people on the street to run U without needing a single person currently here!!
I do hope I am wrong!
P.S. Don't go thrashing my #'s...as I said I do not have the time to research all of it (Gotta feed my family) But it is easy to see, barring any massive buyout(Unlikly) we are already dead. Managements current stragety of cutting costs by cutting revenue is doomed..... I learned that one even before College, High School business 101.
I do not have the time you do to research these items , however it seems to me that Dave is taking us down a one-way road. Yes we are cutting costs....but we are also cutting revenue at the same lightning pace, so at least what I see in my corner of the furloughed world is no change in our basic problem. We cut 300 mil.in costs....while we also cut 300 mil. in revenue.
It did not start on 9-11....I remember sitting in line at Boston Logan in a 73 going to FLA looking at the line ahead of us. U had twice the number of planes going than the rest of the airlines.....only problem was the rest of them were doing that run in 75's and 76's. Half the cost twice the Pax.(Not exact. generalizing my #'s)
I am just a dumb Pilot, but it doesn't take too many brains to see the problem with that picture. On the plus side...We always went full. and left people at the gate.
Along comes Dave, Huge cuts, cost savings..Yes. But we pull out of BWI almost completly?! Drop lots of routes etc. etc. The excuse was that FLA is a low revenue route......B#LLS**t. It was a low rev route simply because our managment did not have enough sense to run 10 large A/C rather than 20 small ones!! However we must have one up on AirTran and Southwest since we sabotaged their revenue model by giving them all those unprofitable routes. Have you seen Southwests schedule out of BWI? Looks like our old one....Nope no money there, nary a bit.
I though I saw some silly money losing things before 9-11 but after sitting back and watching the fiasco over the last year....Holy Cow!!
As for RJ's being the savior....I used to be in that world also....Trust me on this, passengers would much rather be on a 20 yr old 73 rather than on a new RJ. Just go down to the express gates in plain clothes and sit and listen!! Something that airline managment hasn't done in a long time. If the passenger has a choice (and they do) they will choose the 73 EVERY time.
U is a basket case....and getting worse. If you are not looking for another job Chip you are being foolish and unrealistic. I am 99% sure you will be joining me on the street in the near future.
As for U's unique corporate transaction..... I will bet 50 bucks that it doesn't involve the employees going with it! EVERY other airline now has enough people on the street to run U without needing a single person currently here!!
I do hope I am wrong!
P.S. Don't go thrashing my #'s...as I said I do not have the time to research all of it (Gotta feed my family) But it is easy to see, barring any massive buyout(Unlikly) we are already dead. Managements current stragety of cutting costs by cutting revenue is doomed..... I learned that one even before College, High School business 101.
Pacemaker
Senior
- Sep 3, 2002
- 475
- 0
Either management obtains productivity cuts or will legally terminate the pensions with the PBGC.
Chip,
What makes you think he doesn't want it all...the people running the show have made it a practice to negotiate final concession packages to save the company and then quickly break those promises and come back for more. My guess is they will press to get the productivity now to save our pensions, then in a few months come back for the rest, including W-2.
Chip,
What makes you think he doesn't want it all...the people running the show have made it a practice to negotiate final concession packages to save the company and then quickly break those promises and come back for more. My guess is they will press to get the productivity now to save our pensions, then in a few months come back for the rest, including W-2.
Wings, you just got a better pension then almost anyone in the industry with the IAM National Pension Plan, with a $78 a month qualifyier
Pacemaker
Senior
- Sep 3, 2002
- 475
- 0
The answer is it is not my job to figure out what Dave should do. That's Dave job and like most CEO's these days he expects to be compensated thusly - remember there's a lot of extraordinary talent there in Crystal City; so it's up to them to figure it out. Inherent in this relationship is supposed to be a certain amount of tension between mgmnt. and labor - that's how the system should work; you eventually reach a compromise somewhere in the middle that all can live with.
Dave has lied repeatedly both in private communications with employees and in public forums. He has not negotiated in good faith. He has not been willing to lead by example. His actions have not been that of a moral and ethical person. I don't want my union leaders to follow him into the dining room let alone walk hand-in-hand with him down the path chosen for this airline.
Dave has lied repeatedly both in private communications with employees and in public forums. He has not negotiated in good faith. He has not been willing to lead by example. His actions have not been that of a moral and ethical person. I don't want my union leaders to follow him into the dining room let alone walk hand-in-hand with him down the path chosen for this airline.
Everyone, please take some time to read the fine print in the last contracts that we agreed to...
I do not think that many of the new concessions are up for vote. At least I know that they are not for the F/A's.
This is a direct quote from the Tentative Agreement and Contract Language, July 2002.
If this tentative contract is ratified, the Company and the union will negotiate cost-saving productivity improvements in ares as scheduling and reserve.
I do not think that many of the new concessions are up for vote. At least I know that they are not for the F/A's.
This is a direct quote from the Tentative Agreement and Contract Language, July 2002.
If this tentative contract is ratified, the Company and the union will negotiate cost-saving productivity improvements in ares as scheduling and reserve.
Similar threads
- chipmunn
- American Airlines
