APFA on crew rest

[TWAnr]

Why did they not think of the consequences while they were negotiating?

The APFA Board of Directors is keenly aware of the hardships that
the minimum layovers are causing Flight Attendants. During their
meeting, the Board unanimously passed resolution #2. The resolution
states that our members have begun to experience severe health
repercussions due to sleep deprivation and the inability to obtain
food either on the aircraft or on layovers, including but not
limited to extreme fatigue. This resolution reinforces the APFA''s
commitment to seek a resolution to the minimum layover issue. It
outlines a further course of action for APFA to follow including
seeking additional assistance in the matter from members of Congress
and agencies in charge of such policymaking, involving the
membership in letter-writing campaigns, and working with American to
resolve the issue. APFA will soon provide the membership with
details of the campaign and just what part they will play. Until
that time, be sure to begin collecting documentation on your trips
and your allotted crew rest.
From the Scheduling Department: American has notified the APFA that
the sick list continues to be high and that they are utilizing
international reserves on the domestic operation in accordance with
Article 9.L.3 and Appendix I.9.L.3 of the Contract. The complete
list of the order of open time is contained in Article 9.L., pages
118-119, and Appendix I.9.L., pages 481-482, of the Contract.
Although the level of open time coverage has not reached the steps
it was at the end of July, we encourage Flight Attendants to monitor
the APFA Web site for Scheduling Alerts and this hotline for
updates.

 

[FA Mikey]

The problem is they want FAA min rest to be 8 hours from arrival to departure. Make it 8 hours behind the door you would reduce the problems we are having by one half. APFA negotiated and thought FAA min rest was going to be 8 behind the door. AA laid it out shortly before voting ended they were going with the literal interpretation that is was arrival to departure.

 

[L1011Ret]

Well, you sound prepared and have found ways to cope. That is good. I guess what is troubling is that APFA now wants help from everybody - talk of going to Congress, the FAA, etc., for something they - APFA - clearly negotiated. It would seem much anger is also directed at AA who offered APFA a big menu of possible concessions and yet AA is responsible for this?

 

[FA Mikey]

Its a small step in the right direction. At least they are doing something about it.

I have yet to experience a problem. I have done GIG and other short layovers. I also have a back up for food in my bag.

 

[MiAAmi]

I think APFA had a gun to their head and had to choose the items that had the least effect on the majority. Now if some of those items just are not functional then I think the company needs to rethink what it takes to make the system run smoothly. This one item is a perfect example of why you need unions at companies like AMR. They will take advantage of every situation possible to make money without regard to how long a day you've worked. Do you get great customer service from employees that are constantly tired or even more importantly do safety steps get missed? Sometimes the short term gain is out weighed by the long term affect. I'm willing to weather the storm for a while but I have yet to see any positive results reported to the employees specially since we have given up so very much to "help" turn things around. They were very good about throwing numbers at us prior to the concessions. Now we hear very little encouraging words from the top few if any positive results so far. I would be interested in some forcasts whether good or bad.

 

[L1011Ret]

Sorry, I do not buy it. APFA knows how the FARs are interpreted. There have been so many disagreements over "interpretation" of the FARs and so many rulings by courts and arbitrators that very few are not clear on what 8 hours is to the FAA and AA. As to the "gun to the head" argument about APFA's choices, I sat in court and heard from the AA Director OF Labor Relations on APFA's numerous choices. There was a big menu. APFA choose fully aware of the consequences. There were even a set of choices involving about a 3.5% greater salary cut that would have resulted in minimum furloughs. And you were not really informed on the choices and the vote was a scandal. Let APFA be accountable for once.
And further about "the gun to the head" argument, TWA employees had the "gun to the head" over scope issues. AA employees have hardly felt sorry that TWA employees had the "gun to the head." Who do you expect should fix the fact that they had a gun to their heads and make it right? And the result of that was aptly stated by a AA pilot negotiator who was quoted in court as saying "we f**ked you because we could" in relation to pilot seniority issues. APFA did the same to the TWA F/As. Let APFA live with the concessions it signed up for. They appear rather onerous and many believe that APFA could have done much better. Certainly the TWA F/As have had to live with what APFA Signed Them On For. Using the gun to the head argument whenever it suits you is failing to accept reality and the responsibility of APFA.

 

[extwacaptain]

Why did they not think of the consequences while they were negotiating?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think the F/A’s union was so concerned with giving away the furlough pay and medical benefits of those who recently came from TWA, that they overlooked the obligation to protect the work rules of ALL of the members. (A little temporary mental overload.)

Like the old saying that we’ve so recently been hearing…..â€￾Get Over Itâ€￾.

Just SLEEP REAL FAST and keep smiling at the passengers.

 

[nimbus]

Crew rest is a safety issue. The APFA can address it but only AA managment can make it happen (voluntarily or through Federal orders.)

A flight attendant working into the middle of the night (on Wuropean flights), changing time zones and suffering from Jet-lag, and receiving only 8.5 hours block to block layovers is dangerous.

Conservatively speaking, these workers are only getting about 6 hours sleep ( I am estimating the 6 hours by taking into account deplaning, the ride to crew hotel, the hotel pick up which I assume is 30 minutes pre sign-in, and very conservatively estimating the 30 - 45 minutes most of them need to get ready in the morning.)


Exhaustion opens the door for crew injuries-on-duty, poor response times in critical situations (e.g. evacuations and medical emergencies), and possible poor judgement and reactions in passenger disturbances.

A corresponding example why Flight Attendant crew rests are necessary would be the reason the government drug test Flight Attendants; to ensure the passengers needs are well met in an emergency by an ALERT and FUNCTIONAL crew.


I would hate to see American Airlines sued in a court-of-law for some stupid accident that occurred because a flight attendant failed to perform or react to a critcal situation because they were denied inadequate crew rest.

The APFA should go to the FAA for clarification and stricter guidelines for crew rest on layovers. The FAA oversees Flight Attendant guidelines pertaining to safety performance.

If AA or the FAA fail to react to this safety issue, after it is repeated pointed out to them, they may have more problems on there hands in the future.

Some short term money saving ideas are not worth the health and safety of the employees nor passengers.

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 8/2/2003 3:00:59 PM L1011Ret wrote:

Again I would point out to you that this is what APFA wanted!!!

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Sorry Wrong, It was not what APFA negotiated or wanted. There interpretation at the time was for behind the door. AA changed mid stream as they have so many times before and so gracefully during the BK threat screw job.

 

[L1011Ret]

Again I would point out to you that this is what APFA wanted!!!

 

[MiAAmi]

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On 8/2/2003 3:00:59 PM L1011Ret wrote:

Again I would point out to you that this is what APFA wanted!!!

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Wrong Billy! Quit using this topic as a way to bash APFA for your frustrations over Our decision to put TWA at the bottom of the seniority list.

 

[TWAnr]

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On 8/2/2003 3:55:30 PM MiAAmi wrote:


Wrong Billy! Quit using this topic as a way to bash APFA for your frustrations over Our decision to put TWA at the bottom of the seniority list.


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The APFA did its membership a disservice in accepting the FAR minimum crew rest rules and it DESERVES to be criticized for this decision. It has nothing to do with disagreements over seniority integration. The APFA bulletin boards were rife with criticism of the union leadership over this matter; until they were shut down that is.
And, by the way, I don't believe that you are on a first name basis with Captain (ret.) Chamberlin, so if you wish to personally address him, kindly be respectful and address him by that title or as Dr. Chamberlin, which reflects his present profession.

 

[L1011Ret]

Sorry wrong. I sat and listened as John Ward, a APFA negotiator and the AA Director of Labor Relations went back and forth on the witness stand about these issues. They generally were in agreement that AA offered a menu of many items, AA offered their own suggestions on items to pick and Ward and the APFA negotiator agreed they accepted the items they decided to pick. It did not appear at all that anyone was holding a gun to APFA's head, in fact it appeared that APFA stalled during the process. As to whether the rest is "behind the door", block in to block out or some other version, negotiators keep very good notes. They have to. So if there is disagreement on what was agreed to APFA should have filed a Presidental Grievance by now. Where is it?
As to criticizing APFA, there are a lot of AAers disgusted with APFA, two new BBs directed at criticizing APFA - sueapfa and newapfa - and a lot of posters on 4m who criticize APFA. Perhaps you should look into improving APFA rather than say it should not be criticized. If APFA was criticized by enough of its members you might get some useful change.

 

[MiAAmi]

So what. The company found a loop hole and decided to take advantage of it. The company made the mistake a while back of agreeing to wording that enabled flight attendants to make more incentive money on trips traded between each other. We take full advantage of that. The difference is that lack of rest raises eyebrows about safety and the company has to be very careful not to push the issue in so much that the FAA sets a new standard. Something they will never be able to negotiate with us again.