APFA tentative agreement is worth 420 million, what about yours?

FWAAA

Veteran
Jan 5, 2003
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On 4/11/2003 12:01:54 PM FA Mikey wrote:

APFA tentative agreement is worth in excess of 420 million, Of course in AA numbers its 340. what about yours? Has APA or TWU given the actual value based on there analysts?

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If the value of all TAs are understated by AA, then ratification of the agreements should lead to greater profitability sooner, right? Greater chance of survival, right?

Like my kids, worrying about who got a larger cookie for desert.
 
I ask myself, why they do alot of the things they do. Why do they continue to pay out thousands of dollars in pay and credit by building lines that fly one leg layover for 32 hours and fly one leg back. For the month works maybe 36 hours and pays 72. Why to they continue to do that? Beats the heck out of me.
 
Many people get to the point, they dont care about survival. AA is making it very clear a BK filing is imminent whether these agreements are ratified or not.

I wish it was so trivial as to compare my CBA and career to your kids cookie. Its just not though.

The point is, that I want credit for all I have given up. If you wanted 420 million then ask for 420 million.

AA brought us to the table, we had a doable agreement that met the threshold of the 340 million in savings. Problem was they didn''t want what we had to offer. They had the TA they wanted on paper.

The only chance to change is in BK negotiations. For better or worse. That''s where the company has led us.
 
Then AA should have just demanded a % paycut. Everyone could have agreed on the value of that concession.

Big mistake, AA.

Ask 10 different experts to opine on the value of the TAs, and you will probably get 10 different answers.

If you''re so sure that AA is going to file no matter what, then why did management go thru this charade?

Good luck no matter what happens.
 
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On 4/11/2003 12:06:04 PM FWAAA wrote:

If the value of all TAs are understated by AA, then ratification of the agreements should lead to greater profitability sooner, right? Greater chance of survival, right?

Like my kids, worrying about who got a larger cookie for desert.

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It is not that simple. By ratifying this tentative agreement, the union admits that the concessions are valued at only $340 million and not the $400 to $420 million which is their true worth.

When, mind you not if, the company files for bankruptcy reorganization and comes to the union for more concessions (the section 1113 proposal is assessed at $470 million), the union will be estopped from arguing that the previous give backs were really worth more than previously was agreed. Thus, instead of coming with additional $50 to $70 millions in concessions to get up to the $470,000,000 figure from the actual value of the tentative agreement, the union will have to give up $130 million in addition to the agreed value of the tentative agreement.
 
APA''s concessions are valued around 880M. The PDP estimates about 1.1B and the company of course says its exactly 660M. I guess the true test will be in the actual payroll for 2003/2004.
 
Which should increase the company''s chances of survival, right? I mean, if they give up even more, that bodes well for AA, right?

Why is everyone so hung up on analyst''s guesses about the total value of the concessions?

Concessions suck. No matter what appraised value.

And if the company survives, the union members can take their pound of flesh in 2009.

If the employees don''t care about the company surviving, I wish they would jump off the ship now rather than contribute to its sinking.
 
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On 4/11/2003 3:44:55 PM FWAAA wrote:

Which should increase the company''s chances of survival, right? I mean, if they give up even more, that bodes well for AA, right?

Why is everyone so hung up on analyst''s guesses about the total value of the concessions?

Concessions suck. No matter what appraised value.

And if the company survives, the union members can take their pound of flesh in 2009.

If the employees don''t care about the company surviving, I wish they would jump off the ship now rather than contribute to its sinking.

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Well, I am kind of hung up on the numbers because its my pay. The numbers represent a dollar value to the work rules which amounts to the quality of life on the job.

Concessions suck? Agreed. So does having a company who doesn''t bargain in good faith.

I hate the tired line if you don''t like leave. The people fight to make it better are the one who care the most. The ones who try just a bit harder. There the ones who LIKE there jobs. Who dont spend half the day bitching about the customers and the company and the managers, on and on.

No one in my work group thinks AA doesn''t need help. That concessions are and will be necessary. We will do our fair share. But we wont stand by and be extorted by the company, because they think they hold all the cards.
 
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On 4/11/2003 12:06:04 PM FWAAA wrote:



Like my kids, worrying about who got a larger cookie for desert.

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No, its like filling out an expense account and saying you spent $100 when it was really $1.00. Its called dishonesty and if the employees did the same thing to the company they would be fired.​
 
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On 4/11/2003 12:06:04 PM FWAAA wrote:


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If the value of all TAs are understated by AA, then ratification of the agreements should lead to greater profitability sooner, right? Greater chance of survival, right?

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This could lead to a greater chance that even larger numbers of management can now have their country club memberships funded and also an increase in who gets company paid automobiles. We could even have four more Arenas with our name on them to prevent JetBlue or Southwest from getting their name on them first.

Just because we are screwed worse than we were told doesn't mean management allows the leftover to show up as profit.
 
On 4/11/2003 4:12:46 PM FA Mikey wrote:



I hate the tired line if you don''t like leave. The people fight to make it better are the one who care the most. The ones who try just a bit harder. There the ones who LIKE there jobs. Who dont spend half the day bitching about the customers and the company and the managers, on and on.


Mikey:

Now, perhaps, you understand why we all stuck it out with TWA.
 
I'm a firm believer in karma, the APFA deserves everything they get. They sold out the bottom people, period. To take away people's furlough pay is pure selfishness. I firmly believe that was a direct shot at the TWA F/As, they have a legit DFR issue, it seem truely punitive to offer up furlough pay of about to be laidoff employees. Talk about preditory behavior. To top it off, they didn't even get the 5 year limit on recall changed to a higher number. In essence, this furlough is a firing for most of the F/As being let go.
The APA doesn't get off that easy neither here, they basically sold out the bottom of their list to protect the A plan, which will be gone in a BK filing. Mark my words, if a TA with the pilots is reached, AA is still file and tell the pilots, we don't want any paycuts, just your A plan. AA has been very shrewd during this process and the apa as usual fell right for it. You have to ask yourselves, there is a 3.2 billion underfunding of the pensions at AA, the 1.8 billion doesn't address that, how will AA come up with this shortfall without having to visit a BK court?
 
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On 4/12/2003 10:36:48 AM flyboymd8 wrote:

I''m a firm believer in karma, the APFA deserves everything they get. They sold out the bottom people, period. To take away people''s furlough pay is pure selfishness. I firmly believe that was a direct shot at the TWA F/As, they have a legit DFR issue, it seem truely punitive to offer up furlough pay of about to be laidoff employees. Talk about preditory behavior. To top it off, they didn''t even get the 5 year limit on recall changed to a higher number. In essence, this furlough is a firing for most of the F/As being let go.
The APA doesn''t get off that easy neither here, they basically sold out the bottom of their list to protect the A plan, which will be gone in a BK filing. Mark my words, if a TA with the pilots is reached, AA is still file and tell the pilots, we don''t want any paycuts, just your A plan. AA has been very shrewd during this process and the apa as usual fell right for it. You have to ask yourselves, there is a 3.2 billion underfunding of the pensions at AA, the 1.8 billion doesn''t address that, how will AA come up with this shortfall without having to visit a BK court?

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Your Karma theory, What did the U and UAL people do to deserve what they are going through? So in your theory of AA people deserve this, why does it also seem to hurt those whom you perceive as the tireless victims. Since you were not in the negotiations. You were not at the table. It nothing more than your overly simplistic belief that it was APFA and not AA that took furlough pay. I am not going to say one way or the other because I really dont know what happened beyond the gun to the head.

For someone who believes n Karma you sure have a lot of anger, resentment and hateful predictions, to a group of people in a situation that doesn''t seem to involve you.