Are AA''s executive bonus situation and Carty''s possible dismissal similar at all to.......

Dec 21, 2002
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....Siegel and the whole hidden bonus fiasco awhile back, not only with his own but with the W and G lunacy? Should AA take a page from US and let it go, or should the board and employees at US be doing some more probing like what AA is doing? Odd that no topic exists yet about the similarities in circumstances, so thought it would be interesting to see what side of the fence people are on about this issue.
 

CLIPPEDWINGS

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Apr 19, 2003
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Severed-n-happy,
First off, I want to say I 100% support AA employees in their re-vote.
Even if it sends them into chapter 11. They will probably go their anyway, just like we did. We gave and they took us there anyway. Some group somehow some way has to put a stop to this corporate greed. Yes, that is all it is.
As for US researching our PARALLEL greed. What can we do now? I really don''t think there is anything we can do. If there is.......I am right there. I am sure the whole company would be too. Who would start it?
Keep us posted if this is something you are serious about.
The press is a good place to start.
 

mlt

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Dec 2, 2002
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The executives at US Airways have a similar supplemental pension (SERP) as American. According to the recent SEC filing our executives have the following pension benefits:

Years of service accrue at an accelerated rate.

Their pensions are based on pre-concession earnings and assumed bonuses.

They have a defined contribution plan.

In addition, they receive the difference of a defined benefit plan (2.4% muliplier) minus the defined contribution plan (at an annuity rate!).

Medical, Travel and other perks.

SERP Pension is paid from the general funds.

source: SEC filing
 

Tim Nelson

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It''s very similar to US AIRWAYS and corporate greed, which is after all, what this is about.

The difference is that the non-afl-cio union at AA broke from the ranks and chose not to sign on to a contract that was based on insincerity. A rightful position indeed.

On the other hand, my union, as far as I know, did not reveal Wolf''s or Gangwall''s $30 million perk to anyone, even though my understanding is that our attorneys were allowed to ''check the books''.
Of course, some may say that our attorneys and so-called "top" people didn''t have access to the ''whole'' of the books, but to suggest that they only knew in part does harm to justice in light of the raping of the workers.
Of course, in the end, one must ask oneself, who paid our attorneys?

Tim Nelson
 

mlt

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Dec 2, 2002
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The translation of Mr. Siegel's SERP:

He accrues seniority at a rate of 3 years for 1 year of service for the first 5 years. At the completion of 5 years he receives a bonus accrual of 5 years. 5 years of service = 20 years accrual.

His final average earnings for the SERP are based on pre-concession wages of 750K + assumed bonus for reaching target 100% (750K) + assumed bonus for reaching additional target 200% (1.5 million) Final average earnings= 3million dollars.

SERP calculation:

.024 (x) 20 (years of service) (x) 3million (final average earnings) = $1.440 million dollars

You then subtract the annuity value of the defined contribution plan to determine the SERP retirement. Keep in mind even if the market skyrockets and his DC plan is worth an astronomical value of 1 million after 5 years, the annuity value is only in the range of 50 thousand.

So he walks away after 5 years of service with the full defined contribution + roughly 1.4 million annually(SERP) for life at retirement age. Unless he loses his position as a result of change in control....he then collects immediately!!!

One more thing:
Lets not forget his share of the stock with a projected value of 55 million.
 

PITbull

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Dec 29, 2002
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MLT,

I wrote Siegels contract out some time ago, as "mark my words" had requested.
Point here is that ALL the majors will be implementing the same "plan" as U. It is now about reducing ALL cost by stripping the employee of wages and every benefit that protected them in the work place. I''ve written this out over the past 6 months over and over again to give LABOR a wake up call. WE as Labor are the targets with these mangements across the Industry and you watch...across all industries that have unions.

There is not enough labor laws to protect the worker. But, hell there is enough laws to protect Corporate America and enough tax dollars to hand out to these corporations anytime they scream "ooh, I''m melting; I''m melting"........

Tim,

Who paid the union lawyers for these negotiations WAS USAIRWAYS!
 

Tim Nelson

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On 4/23/2003 1:56:06 PM mlt wrote:

The translation of Mr. Siegel''s SERP:

He accrues seniority at a rate of 3 years for 1 year of service for the first 5 years. At the completion of 5 years he receives a bonus accrual of 5 years. 5 years of service = 20 years accrual.

His final average earnings for the SERP are based on pre-concession wages of 750K + assumed bonus for reaching target 100% (750K) + assumed bonus for reaching additional target 200% (1.5 million) Final average earnings= 3million dollars.

SERP calculation:

.024 (x) 20 (years of service) (x) 3million (final average earnings) = $1.440 million dollars

You then subtract the annuity value of the defined contribution plan to determine the SERP retirement. Keep in mind even if the market skyrockets and his DC plan is worth an astronomical value of 1 million after 5 years, the annuity value is only in the range of 50 thousand.

So he walks away after 5 years of service with the full defined contribution + roughly 1.4 million annually(SERP) for life at retirement age. Unless he loses his position as a result of change in control....he then collects immediately!!!

One more thing:
Lets not forget his share of the stock with a projected value of 55 million.

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Not bad, $55 million + $1.4 million per year for life?

BTW, is the manufactured consent of the management retention process any different between industry''s? For instance, the steel industry, have the execs there lobbied for the same millions of bonus'' money, stock, and golden parachutes while their industry struggled?

Tim Nelson
 

Dea Certe

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Aug 20, 2002
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Wow! They can figure out how much to pay Dave, compute his rapid accrual of seniority for retirement purposes but has anyone come up with an explanation of the flight attendant sick policy?

Should I get sick, do the courtesy of staying home and not exposing my coworkers and passengers to my illness and I get penalized. No one can tell me exactly how much, though.

I think the entire country is getting a more than a little annoyed at the disparity between CEO pay/benefits and what the workers get. We middle class/working class folks are pretty much paying the freight in this country through our taxes. What happens when we are all bumped to lower tax brackets? The wealthy aren''t going to be paying their fair share if the Bush tax cuts get passed. Who''s going to pay the bills?

How many thousands of people are unemployed or under-employed today? I suppose we can look for jobs at the country clubs, trimming the greens and keeping the cocktails poured.

In the good times, no one worried about CEO comp packages. It''s a little hard to justify these hefty bonuses while demanding pay and benefit cuts from the ranks. And crying poor to the federal government.
 

Dea Certe

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Aug 20, 2002
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Mike,

Me? Incite class warfare?? Nah, the CEO''s are doing a fine job of it on their own!

Dea AKA Deceased Equine Abuser
 

Dea Certe

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Aug 20, 2002
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Anyone else see Jack Welch on CNN tonight?

Mr. Welch surely reaped some pretty pennies while at GE but he also increased shareholder value. He was a long time GE employee as well, not one of those fly-by-night, loot and pillage kind of CEO''s either.

I''d guess there''s a little sweating going on in the executive suites of Corporate America today.
 

SpinDoc

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Feb 17, 2003
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On 4/23/2003 8:54:19 AM Severed-N-Happy wrote:

....Siegel and the whole "hidden" bonus fiasco awhile back, not only with his own but with the W and G lunacy? Should AA take a page from US and "let it go", or should the board and employees at US be doing some more probing like what AA is doing? Odd that no topic exists yet about the similarities in circumstances, so thought it would be interesting to see what side of the fence people are on about this issue.

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The circumstances of the AA deception and the payments to Wolf, Gangwal, and Nagin are not the same. AA did not disclose bonuses to top managers and the protected pension fund until AFTER concessionary contracts were voted on by the union members. In US Airways case, the $35 million in severance pay was properly disclosed during the initial Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing, which was BEFORE the unions were asked to vote on concessions.
Don Carty is finished at AA because the rank and file will never trust him again. While the payments to WolfGang and company may not be very palatable to the rank and file, at least Dave Seigel did not withhold the information until after union concessions were approved.
There IS a difference between the two situations.
 

stewbear

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Jan 28, 2003
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On 4/23/2003 10:41:24 PM Dea Certe wrote:

Anyone else see Jack Welch on CNN tonight?

Mr. Welch surely reaped some pretty pennies while at GE but he also increased shareholder value. He was a long time GE employee as well, not one of those fly-by-night, loot and pillage kind of CEO''s either.

I''d guess there''s a little sweating going on in the executive suites of Corporate America today.

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NO, That''s the stench of old First Class Champagne dribbling through the floor of the Exec suite..Sweetie
 

Dea Certe

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Aug 20, 2002
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Stewbear,

LOL! Is it recycled champagne slipping down the legs of Brooks Brothers suits? Lordy, I hope so!

Dea