AWA International

Columbia blue

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Aug 20, 2002
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International routes...the next frontier for AWA...well probably not, but I think you will see more routes....in another year or so. My candidates....Belize and Costa Rica...(and no...I dont believe we will see another AWA 747 to Japan in our lifetimes : ) Should include Cancun which I believe is a given and will be the next Mexico market. Just curious as to your opinion on this and where you think AWA should fly if they spread their wings on more int'l routes...
 
Aug 21, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 9/17/2002 3:32:30 PM Columbia blue wrote:

[FONT color=#33ff66 style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #009966"]International[/FONT] routes...the next frontier for AWA...well probably not, but I think you will see more routes....in another year or so. My candidates....[FONT color=#6600cc face="Courier New" size=2]Belize and Costa Rica[/FONT]...(and no...I dont believe we will see another AWA 747 to Japan in our lifetimes ). Should include Cancun which I believe is a given and will be the next Mexico market. Just curious as to your opinion on this and where you think AWA should fly if they spread their wings on more int'l routes...besides which..it's been a [FONT color=#cc33ff]slow [/FONT]week or two. And yes ...I'm done playing with the new text
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[/blockquote]

Montreal or Ottawa. Start with RJ routes from CMH and see how things go.
[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/4.gif']
 

AA191

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Sep 17, 2002
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Interesting thread:

If we really take a look at the PHX market as it relates to Mexico, HP has covered the Western Mexican coast with a ample supply of flights. However, the Mayan Rivera has not been covered effectively from Phoenix.

Last time I checked, PHX-CUN was served with a 727 from Allegro on Saturdays only with a charter operator having control of the aircraft. Now, as CUN continues to grow and has already established itself as a premier destination, it boggles my mind to see the lack of flights to that destination. If you want to go to CUN on a real airline from PHX then it is through IAH, DFW or LAX.

Is it possible for HP to examine the options of flying Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday from PHX-CUN? Does this make sense? - Perhaps some of you at HP could throw this upwards in Tempe.
 
Aug 21, 2002
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I really wish the embargo against Cuba would end. Havana would be a super destination.
 

motnot

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Aug 20, 2002
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I think you guys are on the right track. For Mexico, it's kind of hard to believe that AWA doesn't already serve Cancun and Cozumel. One would think those would be at or near the top of all int'l destinations under consideration.

With the success of RJ service to Toronto, I wouldn't be surprised to see AWA start RJs to Montreal at some point to test the waters, especially if the mainline YYZ service does OK. Ottawa is probably unlikely any time soon, although if you add that and Montreal, those are all the real biggies in terms of Canada.

Other than that, Belize is an increasingly popular destination, and I really think some Caribbean service, like San Juan and Jamaica, have to be coming. Yields to the Caribbean are quite good, and there is very little non-stop service to SJU and MBJ from the West.
 
OP
C

Columbia blue

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Actually motnot...I would add 2 more canadian destinations..Hamilton, Ontario to CMH on an RJ..pretty good sized place (and a Westjet hub)...so perhaps some feed there for Columbus....and Winnipeg which is kind of like Denver...i.e. a big city in the middle of nowhere...(nowhere in this case meaning no other large cities within driving distance). Ignoring COS for the moment.....A PHX-Winnipeg service would go over well I think..Hmmm...I'm going to have to learn these Canadian city codes...
 

BDLDFW

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Aug 21, 2002
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Winnipeg? Interesting, especially considering the Phoenix Coyotes hockey team originated in Winnipeg. Hmmm.
 

motnot

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Aug 20, 2002
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Well, columbia, I did say the real biggies for Canada. The Montreal metro area has 3.5 million, and the Ottawa area has over 1 million (but all that government business, too). I'd be surprised if Ottawa could ever have more than RJs to CMH (well, at least for years).

Hamilton and Winnipeg just don't cut it. Their metro regions are under 700,000, and comparativley few many people want or need to go there from the West. They're fine destinations, just not for AWA.

http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/People/...tion/demo05.htm
 

UA777DEN

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Aug 19, 2002
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Frontier's Cancun service should be a real hit.

Frontier is also expected to announce Cabo San Lucas (SJD) and Mazatlan (MZT) very soon also.

Don't count on Phoenix (PHX) - Winnipeg (YWG).

Winnipeg is an incredibly tiny market. Air Canada often has trouble filling it's 3 daily CRJs to ORD from Winnipeg (YWG)!

AirBC flew Denver (DEN) - Winnipeg (YWG) 2x daily on BAe 146s about 2 years ago but it failed miserably.

Now United Express carrier Air Wisconsin is going to start up Denver (DEN) - Winnipeg (YWG) 2x Daily on CRJs starting October 8. Wonder how it will do....probably mediocre at best.

What America West should look at is Edmonton (YEG) from Phoenix (PHX). Edmonton is a much much larger market, and a daily CRJ flight can probably succeed. United Express started Denver (DEN) - Edmonton (YEG) in May and they haven't been able to keep up with the demand. Flights are oversold almost everyday..... But that's probably because an Edmonton-based company has large operations in Denver....

Regards
 
OP
C

Columbia blue

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Aug 20, 2002
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[P]Hmmmm.you may be right...but Winnepeg isnt much smaller than Calgary. And that's what I was thinking of. The one flt a day to PHX bit. If it was successful...well then AWA can look at more flts...Hamilton...really just a feeder to CMh..although in reality, I can think of a half-dozen cities I'd prefer to feed the CMH hub..[/P]
[P]On a side note..F9 has beaten AWA to Cancun[/P]
[P][A href=http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/020919/190304_1.html]http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/020919/190304_1.html[/A][/P]
[P]that would cut down DEN-PHX-CUN traffic,but I still think an announcement will happen before the year is out....(just a guess though)[/P]
 

mga707

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Aug 19, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 9/19/2002 8:17:24 PM UA777DEN wrote:

Winnipeg is an incredibly tiny market. Edmonton is a much much larger market, [/blockquote]

Untrue. Both are quite similar in terms of population: 600-700,000.
 

motnot

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Aug 20, 2002
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Actually, reference the official Canadial statistics I posted a link for earlier.

[A HREF=http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/People/Population/demo05.htm]Canadian metro area populations[/A]

You'll see that Edmonton is about 25 percent bigger than Winnipeg and roughly the same size as Calgary. When AWA previously served Calgary several years ago, Edmonton was a tag on the end of the flight. It's too far for an RJ.

Size alone doesn't eliminate Winnipeg, but what's more important is that people just don't go there. Calgary's importance to western Canada is far bigger than its size would indicate. Winnipeg is just a medium-sized city, a fine one, but with little importance. And it's literally in the middle of nowhere.
 

mga707

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Aug 19, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 9/19/2002 11:45:26 PM motnot wrote:

Actually, reference the official Canadial statistics I posted a link for earlier.

[A HREF="http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/People/Population/demo05.htm"]Canadian metro area populations[/A]

You'll see that Edmonton is about 25 percent bigger than Winnipeg and roughly the same size as Calgary. [/blockquote]

I defer to your stats, although the one is hardly much, much bigger than the other.
I was going by the figures in my 2000 AAA road atlas, which has Edmonton at 616,000 and Winnipeg at 620,000.

What amazed me in your population tables were the number of Canadian cities that were actually LOSING population!
 

UA777DEN

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Aug 19, 2002
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mga707,

Population does not determine a market size.

Edmonton has nearly 3 times the service than Winnipeg does yet they are both about the same size. Edmonton often has lots of charters to Europe aswell while Winnipeg doesn't.

Edmonton is a MUCH larger market than Winnipeg. Winnipeg is incredibly limited. The fact that Air Canada often has trouble with Winnipeg service from Chicago O'hare gives you an idea about how tiny the market is.

Edmonton has several transcons to various cities while Winnipeg has only to a select few on the east and from Minneapolis/St. Paul (MSP) on Northwest.

The DEN service will be the only service to the west and AirBC tried the route recently and failed miserably.

Also, saying if a city has a larger population than another city means it is a larger market is entirely false. Denver is a considerably larger market than Phoenix, yet Phoenix has about 400,000 more people.

Winnipeg is a very small market while Edmonton is much much larger.
 

mga707

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Aug 19, 2002
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[blockquote]
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On 9/20/2002 5:32:48 PM UA777DEN wrote:

mga707,

Population does not determine a market size.

[/blockquote]

Hate to belabor a point, but that is really an odd assertion. What else could possibly determine market size OTHER than the population of a given market?
 

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