U
UAL24
Guest
Buffonberger is trying to destroy Boeing now. Thought he would be out of breath. After all he has single handedly destroyed 2 airlines this year. Ambitious man.
UAL777flyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 730
- 0
They don't call him Buffy The Airline Slayer for nothing!
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On 8/28/2002 640 PM
I find it quite interesting how quickly you pilots blame the IAM for all airline problems. After 8 years of paying into the ESOP I have only been paid at the new rate for 6 months now. I don't believe that could have brought UAL down. If I remember correctly ALPA was the group that was hell bent on buying this airline at any price. Hows that ownership thing working out?
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Didn't blame them, merely made an observation. Maybe they aren't responsible for getting the airlines into the situation, just have been willing to help them get out in the past. but this goes to the next question. when the ERP proposals come out, will the IAM say that the company doesn't need that much? does the IAMs track record indicate that they have been right in the past? Ever? Yes the pilots have made some huge financial mistakes. They even tried to buy the company for $300 a share once. I think they tried to buy it another time, and could have financed the whole deal with just the sale of rental cars and hotels, but the IAM put a poison pill clause in the contract to prevent it. But the ownership thing would have prob worked great...had it not been for one of the BOD members voting to waste a year and over 1 billion to swell his unions power by buying U.
Tim Thorpe
Member
- Aug 20, 2002
- 53
- 0
I find it quite interesting how quickly you pilots blame the IAM for all airline problems. After 8 years of paying into the ESOP I have only been paid at the new rate for 6 months now. I don't believe that could have brought UAL down. If I remember correctly ALPA was the group that was hell bent on buying this airline at any price. Hows that ownership thing working out?
OP
UAL24
Guest
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #6
One only needs to look at the landscape of destroyed airlines to recognize the IAM's handy work. Eastern,PanAM,Braniff,USAir, TWA. If you deny the fact that they used the exact same negotiating tactic with each and every airline even the casual observer could pick up on a trend here. Buffy is probably viewing this as an opportunity to ask UAL for more. It is the history of the IAM. Why members of this Union even follow these incompetents is beyond rational thought. Live in denial all you want, history does not reflect well on the IAM and it's members. Perhaps because everytime they kill an airline all those members get hired at the next victim airline and bring that attitude of destruction with them.
Read the history of the demise of these airlines. The first group to give concessions in each and every case were the Pilots. FA's tend to come around before it is to late. The IAM just never seemed to think things are all that bad and thought they did not have to help. It is not speculation or conjecture I offer here. It is historical fact. Argue with history all you want you will lose.
Read the history of the demise of these airlines. The first group to give concessions in each and every case were the Pilots. FA's tend to come around before it is to late. The IAM just never seemed to think things are all that bad and thought they did not have to help. It is not speculation or conjecture I offer here. It is historical fact. Argue with history all you want you will lose.
casual rat
Senior
- Aug 25, 2002
- 413
- 3
Management had absolutely nothing to do with the demise of EA,TWA,Braniff or Pan AM...It was those darned IAM people....Okie dokie...I'll buy it! [
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]UAL777flyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 730
- 0
Let me make some comments regarding the IAM at TWA. Yes, they may have gave at certain times when needed. But the cuts were window-dressing. The real changes TWA needed were in terms of work rule changes, staffing changes and removal of protective covenants on certain facilities that were barely being used, yet were being rented at exhorbitant amounts (Hangar 12 and Terminal 6 at JFK, for example).
The IAM at TWA for years and years absolutely refused to give up receipt and dispatch of aircraft and de-icing. There was also a rule whereby an IAM rep had to ride shotgun on EVERY catering truck at TWA hubs to "oversee" the food loading. These are just a few examples of the inefficient work rules that hindered TWA's efficiency and productivity.
The IAM also pushed TWA to a strike countdown in the Summer of 1998 and extorted raises from a company that was far from profitable. The fact was that TWA simply could not take a strike. And the IAM knew it. So the company was forced into giving raises it could not afford, as well as keeping work rules that became outdated the moment de-regulation hit the industry. Were these examples the sole contributor to TWA's eventual demise? Of course not. But they certainly contributed to it.
The IAM at TWA for years and years absolutely refused to give up receipt and dispatch of aircraft and de-icing. There was also a rule whereby an IAM rep had to ride shotgun on EVERY catering truck at TWA hubs to "oversee" the food loading. These are just a few examples of the inefficient work rules that hindered TWA's efficiency and productivity.
The IAM also pushed TWA to a strike countdown in the Summer of 1998 and extorted raises from a company that was far from profitable. The fact was that TWA simply could not take a strike. And the IAM knew it. So the company was forced into giving raises it could not afford, as well as keeping work rules that became outdated the moment de-regulation hit the industry. Were these examples the sole contributor to TWA's eventual demise? Of course not. But they certainly contributed to it.
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On 8/29/2002 1031 AM
The real test will come with SWA's negotiations with their CSA's, which are represented by the IAM. If they can kill SWA, then "buffy the airline slayer" will be a pretty accurate moniker.
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Dang, KCFlyer, where'd you pull that one from? Good'un, that was. Keep throwing them straight across the plate. Are you going to organize your office this labor day? Keep this up and we'll make you an associate union member.
OP
UAL24
Guest
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #12
The IAM has a long and distinguished history of extorting companies on the edge of existence. When they finally realize the situation at hand it is always to late and they make some token offer of conession so that they can at least try to say they offered to help but them evil MGT guys just wouldn't take our money. The IAM voted down a 8%paycut proposal in the middle of BK proceedings. That is truly amazing. U Pilots accepted 26.6%cuts and the FA's accepted a significant % as well. This is classic IAM. The best part of this though is that the tough guys are going to get absolutely destroyed by the BK judge. Pilots and FA's won't be touched. Mechanics are going to just be abused like a red headed step child. They deserve to be. The height of ignorance on display at U right now.
mastermechanic
Advanced
- Aug 20, 2002
- 202
- 0
Finally, something that I can agree on with BOTH the pilots and management. The IAM has screwed everyone in one form or another. And my fellow mechanics still listen and follow these idiots! I don't like unions in general and I don't know if AMFA is the answer, but these guys have gotta go. If you cannot see the trend, then you are dumb, blind, or both.
In fairness to the IAM, the union knows that it is not the sharpest tool in the shed vis-a-vis business decisions(unlike the members of another airline union) and hires professionals with real business and industry expertise to decide the IAM's strategy.
In the TWA case, the IAM had developed a viable restructuring plan that would have given TWA the work-rule concessions necessary to become cost-competitive and stay out of Chapter 11. However, it would have entailed the demotion of CEO Bill Compton to the COO position. Unwilling to accept that fate, he crafted a BK deal with AMR instead, and "forced" it down the throats of the TWA BOD.
For all of the IAM's sins at United, that union has ALREADY given more $$$ to UAL then the last ALPA deal even proposed. Let's not forget that the IAM is allowing UAL to defer hundreds of millions in back pay, essentially as a de facto interest-free loan.
Again, I'm not a fan of the IAM. It would be a gross distortion of the historical record, however, to allow Charlie Bryan to stand as the poster child of what the IAM is all about.
In the TWA case, the IAM had developed a viable restructuring plan that would have given TWA the work-rule concessions necessary to become cost-competitive and stay out of Chapter 11. However, it would have entailed the demotion of CEO Bill Compton to the COO position. Unwilling to accept that fate, he crafted a BK deal with AMR instead, and "forced" it down the throats of the TWA BOD.
For all of the IAM's sins at United, that union has ALREADY given more $$$ to UAL then the last ALPA deal even proposed. Let's not forget that the IAM is allowing UAL to defer hundreds of millions in back pay, essentially as a de facto interest-free loan.
Again, I'm not a fan of the IAM. It would be a gross distortion of the historical record, however, to allow Charlie Bryan to stand as the poster child of what the IAM is all about.
KCFlyer
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 11,222
- 1,425
Avek, all I know is that for two years leading up to the IAM "agreement" at TWA, you could not find a local paper (who still viewed TWA as the "hometown airline") that didn't call them "financially troubled" TWA. Funny how the IAM doesn't like a person in managment, they make his head part of the bargain. At least they only wanted Compton to take a demotion. Charlie Bryan demanded the head of Borman. He got that and more - Frank Lorenzo.
