Can the AFA Really Deliver?

PITbull

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Dec 29, 2002
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Well, well, well,

How many of these posts is management going to send out.

Looks like Perry Hayes latest e-line got some reallly pissed off in Crystal City.

Everyone listen up:

THIS IS PURE CONFIRMATION OF MANAGENT'S ATTEMPT TO BUST OUT A UNION. One at a time...their strategies, (from the union literature I've read), is to get to the members by implying that all the union members "woes" are caused by an "ineffective" union and leadership. Be prepared for more propaganda by this management to move with their internal forces to go after CERTAIN leaders of a union who are out spoken and challenge management.

Don't let them have their way....
 

diogenes

Veteran
Aug 22, 2002
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Folks, let's look at what decertification entails. Ask any agent who was on the property in the early 90's when they decertified the Teamsters as their union.

1. The balloting went smoothly and on schedule - no stalling or company interference.
2. Teamsters came out on the short end of the vote.
3. NMB certified vote results.
4. Within a year, layoffs.
5. Within two, sick leave and vacation converted to PDO's, pension frozen, more layoffs. All the while, represented groups continued to enjoy their negotiated benefits and INCREASES to those benefits.
6. In 93, agents begin organization drive. Much company interference and foot-dragging.
7. In 1995, IAM certified for fleet.
8. In 1999, first contract ratified.

Decertification? You're kidding, right?

Now the IAM ain't the be-all and end-all - I have issues with them, as well. But I'm damn glad to have them, because I have seen what no representation gets you.

And oh, by the way. Unless the rules have changed, there is a year between decertifying one union and voting for another. And AFL-CIO unions have agreed not to raid one another.

Be FULLY informed before you go there.
 

scot

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Aug 19, 2002
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Just a note of advice and warning. Do not assume you know who any poster is because you "think" they post a certain way or slant their postings to a certain viewpoint. Anyone can register here and no proof of identity is required. Everyone is free to choose their own screen name. Unless you have personally verified with them by means other than the BB, do not assume that whom someone pretends to be is who they actually are.
 

Crystal City

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Apr 9, 2003
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If I am unhappy with the way my union (AFA) is representing me, is there a way to change unions or remove the union completely?

Yes. Employees can petition for a secret-ballot vote to decide whether to change or remove their union for any reason. An employee election to determine whether an incumbent union will continue to represent employees is commonly referred to as a decertification election.

How do I call for an employee vote on whether to change or remove the AFA?
Employees wishing to vote to change or decertify their union must file a petition signed by at least 30 percent of the bargaining unit members. The petition is called a decertification petition. The bargaining unit members'' signatures attest to the fact that they no longer wish to be represented by their current union. These signatures are kept confidential and are not divulged to anyone. The petition is enough to demonstrate the employees'' desire for a vote, but a simple majority of those voting by secret ballot is required to formally decertify the incumbent union.
If my co-workers and I file for a decertification election, can our current union or our employer punish us?
No. The Public Employment Relations Act (PERA) prevents either the union or the employer from engaging in conduct, which restrains or coerces employees in their efforts to have a secret-ballot vote, which is a legally protected employee
Employees interested in organizing a vote to change or remove their workplace union should retain a skilled employment lawyer. It is time to make a difference and have your voice count.
Let us look at how AFA performance lives up to its slogans.
At US Airways, flight attendants were furloughed despite a no furlough clause in their contract. Recently, US Airways flight attendants took major benefit reductions in order to try to save the company. At first, the US Airways Master Executive Council (MEC) said no. But in then end when the pressure got the best of them, they conceded. With the recent announcement of 400 FA being furloughed, is the AFA really representing you? There are many other unions that can support your needs.
 

usfliboi

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
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Actullly I think this one is a disgruntled ex unionized person bitter because they were booted. Theres not enough people who would want a recall i assure You. Just as in on this board at the beginning of contract negotiations when people all said they voted no and others did as well. I think we should enjoy this posters post. ITS ENTERTAINMENT!!!! I wonder if they know that this web site knows who they are? They are not anonymous.. BTW CCY? What union what that be since every MAJOR airline is doing the same???
 

firstamendment

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Apr 1, 2003
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You know I''m getting really sick of those who are always sitting around complaining about the AFA. I read all the info given. I vote accordingly. If I want someone I think will be a better leader, I support and vote for that person.

I have seen both the timid leaders and the aggressive leaders. Both bring much to the table. God knows I wouldn''t want the job.

I would like to ask those complaining, what would you have AFA do when the only tactic management has is Chapter 7 threats and force dejeur?

I think the AFA leadership is doing the best they can considering the situations of just coming out of bankruptcy and managements use of force dejuer to justify their every desire. With Bagdad falling, how long will the airline be able to abuse force dejeur?

This latest action from management was poor timing and hypocritical. How dare them brag about a job well done and then strip service to the bones AND cause more f/as to lose jobs.

I disagree with Perry on one matter. Two can play the game of arrogance. On international, no water or juice runs and no coffee service. Want to cut staffing levels 20%, then cut service 20%. What''s wrong with that? Give the customer a smile, a compliant form, and "thank you".

Lastly, Pitbull, are these staffing cuts temporary because of low loads? Or will we put up with this on a full flight of 266 on the A330?

This a pitiful!
 
OP
PITbull

PITbull

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Dec 29, 2002
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Another point to ponder:

If "decertification" should ever occur, this management will not have to pay a contractual severence or moving expenses for any base closures to the f/as if that would ever occur. Another reason this post above exists. Pensions that are contractual could go away as well. Furloughing out of seniority etc...much for management to gain.
 

diogenes

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Aug 22, 2002
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----------------
On 4/9/2003 6:05:20 PM airlineorphan wrote:

Can AFA really deliver?
Wrong question!!

The real question is:
Can flight attendants deliver? (And beyond that, can mechanics, agents, dispatchers, sim-instructers and pilots deliver?)

And does anyone really believe that management will/can benevolently deliver? That''s not their job, it''s not their role!!!

Can we help each other out? Can we stop stabbing each other in the back, stop writing each other up and start working together to deal with a Labor Relations department that spends its days making big bucks just thinking up ways to weaken our ability to defend ourselves?

To folks who are complaining about AFA, keep this in mind:

A union is only as good as its members make it. If you want to put your faith in management, go work at Walmart and see if you get paid for the overtime they force you to put in. Or better yet, check out the experience of Delta flight attendants who took voluntary leaves and weren''t able to return: no recourse, not contract, no organization of flight attendants that was independent of management that could pool the strength of individual flight attendants to win recourse.

We have a lot of problems right now at US Airways. Management is playing some serious games with the employees with the goal of leaving themselves with unilateral power: Workplace dictatorship. Or at least a weakened union that can be trampled whenever management wants. That is what Jery Glass and his coterie of union busters are here for.

I''m someone who believes we should have taken a hard line on concessions from the get-go. We didn''t. We attempted to buy some security essentially by letting management have part of Czechoslovakia. We sholdn''t be surprised that they decided to march all over everything. After all, with this crew in Labor relations, the more you give, the more you give.

We''ve taken some big blows because of all of this (though either way we went, we would''ve been in for a rough ride).

I am glad AFA is taking a hard line on this sick policy. Management can''t even explain the policy, how can they implement it? It''s clearly in violation of the gun-to-the-head agreement that was made over the winter.

It is high time that everyone who is concerned about the position management has bludgeoned us into start getting involved, participate in your union and start putting some heat on management over these contract violations.

Our union reps are working pretty dang hard trying to stand up to this nonsense. They can''t do it all by themselves. A union''s ability to defend a contract isn''t based upon the strength of personalities in leadership positions. It''s based upon how involved its members are. We now have some leaders who welcome membership involvement (it''s a sea change in some bases). Take advantage of it.

Don''t prove the old joke true: "What''s the difference between a flight attendant and a DC-9? The DC-9 stops whining when it gets to the gate."

Now is not the time to whine. Now is the time to get involved and HELP EACH OTHER! We''re weak right now because we''re all running this way and that, expecting our union to serve us. It ain''t no insurance agency. It ain''t a social service agency! It''s about what each of us can do for each other!

Work together and we just might stand together! (Instead of swinging together!)
-Airlineorphan


P.S. There are even times when it may be appropriate to replace one union with another. But you''d better have something credible and well organized, because otherwise you''re just counting on management to be really really nice and honest and take care of it''s little children.

----------------​
-----------------------------------------------------------

So very well said! Bravo!
 

airlineorphan

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
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0
www.usaviation.com
Can AFA really deliver?
Wrong question!!

The real question is:
Can flight attendants deliver? (And beyond that, can mechanics, agents, dispatchers, sim-instructers and pilots deliver?)

And does anyone really believe that management will/can benevolently deliver? That''s not their job, it''s not their role!!!

Can we help each other out? Can we stop stabbing each other in the back, stop writing each other up and start working together to deal with a Labor Relations department that spends its days making big bucks just thinking up ways to weaken our ability to defend ourselves?

To folks who are complaining about AFA, keep this in mind:

A union is only as good as its members make it. If you want to put your faith in management, go work at Walmart and see if you get paid for the overtime they force you to put in. Or better yet, check out the experience of Delta flight attendants who took voluntary leaves and weren''t able to return: no recourse, not contract, no organization of flight attendants that was independent of management that could pool the strength of individual flight attendants to win recourse.

We have a lot of problems right now at US Airways. Management is playing some serious games with the employees with the goal of leaving themselves with unilateral power: Workplace dictatorship. Or at least a weakened union that can be trampled whenever management wants. That is what Jery Glass and his coterie of union busters are here for.

I''m someone who believes we should have taken a hard line on concessions from the get-go. We didn''t. We attempted to buy some security essentially by letting management have part of Czechoslovakia. We sholdn''t be surprised that they decided to march all over everything. After all, with this crew in Labor relations, the more you give, the more you give.

We''ve taken some big blows because of all of this (though either way we went, we would''ve been in for a rough ride).

I am glad AFA is taking a hard line on this sick policy. Management can''t even explain the policy, how can they implement it? It''s clearly in violation of the gun-to-the-head agreement that was made over the winter.

It is high time that everyone who is concerned about the position management has bludgeoned us into start getting involved, participate in your union and start putting some heat on management over these contract violations.

Our union reps are working pretty dang hard trying to stand up to this nonsense. They can''t do it all by themselves. A union''s ability to defend a contract isn''t based upon the strength of personalities in leadership positions. It''s based upon how involved its members are. We now have some leaders who welcome membership involvement (it''s a sea change in some bases). Take advantage of it.

Don''t prove the old joke true: "What''s the difference between a flight attendant and a DC-9? The DC-9 stops whining when it gets to the gate."

Now is not the time to whine. Now is the time to get involved and HELP EACH OTHER! We''re weak right now because we''re all running this way and that, expecting our union to serve us. It ain''t no insurance agency. It ain''t a social service agency! It''s about what each of us can do for each other!

Work together and we just might stand together! (Instead of swinging together!)
-Airlineorphan


P.S. There are even times when it may be appropriate to replace one union with another. But you''d better have something credible and well organized, because otherwise you''re just counting on management to be really really nice and honest and take care of it''s little children.
 
OP
PITbull

PITbull

Veteran
Dec 29, 2002
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Just got PM by "deleted by moderator"...

Said he has called off the troops, but will be watching the boards closely. He gave me a message to tell Teddy Xidas she needs to learn to play ball with management and this is what happens when certain PIT President is quoted in the media.



However, he also states that they will be very busy the next few weeks and that to expect a BIG announcement in the next 90 days.

His final words to me was for us to enjoy the "new sick" policy.
 

usfliboi

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,070
270
They will loase the sick policy argument.AT least 50% of it in arbitration. He wont have to call off anything. Actually i never have cared to much for the union rep in question or should i say no little about her. I can say this. Because of these tactics i support her 100%! It back fired guys ccy!
 

airlineorphan

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
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Hey Pineybob,

How''s it going? Thanks for the comments on my comments. Some I agree with, some I don''t, some I have nuanced differences on, but hey, spice of life!

I will comment on just a couple things, cuz there was just sooooo much there.

1) You are absolutely right. The standard business model of unions will fail in the face of the savage restructuring the airline is undergoing, especially with folks like Jerry Glass and his merry gang of union-busters.

Unions will not be able to meet any of these challenges unless we function more like a movement for justice (rather than like an insurance agency). Our dues are not a fee we pay to have someone else take care of us. Our dues are oneof many ways of pooling of our resources together. They are just the beginning of an opportunity to balance the power in the dictatorship of our workplace. If we don''t actually involve ourselves in the life of our unions, we end up with situations where our resources are squandered or worse. Hey, as the game show used to go: "This is YOUR life!" Don''t be a spectator, be a participant!

The real question is, can we pool the resources of our time and energy? Can we get outside of the box of the standard business or service model of unionism? It''s the only thing we can do that will balance the playing field here.

2) If we''d taken a hard line, would the company have liquidated? Dunno. Maybe. Maybe not. If we''d stood together more strongly, been involved more in our unions, we would''ve been in a stronger position to decide our fates instead of being stampeded in a confused mess. The balance of power in the negotations would''ve been different, no matter how real the liquidation threat was. It might have only meant the difference in the details on contract language, but as we are seeing now, those details make a big difference. Management is taking advantage of the fact that things were stampeded in Concessions I and the Concessions II (the Lightning Round). Pineybob, you know well enough as a business person, that even under the worst circumstances, it is better to negotiate from a position of calm collected strength rather than one of panic. Even if you agree with the premise that some sort of concession needed to be made.

3) I''m glad you liked the Ben Franklin tribute. Here''s my JFK paraphrase:

It''s not a question of what your union can do for you, but what we can do for EACH OTHER. Note I don''t say "what you can do for your union." That''s because to me, it''s about a community of people looking out for each other. Our union is a vehicle for doing so.


''Nuff for now. Go cockroaches!
-Airlineorphan
 

NAPAUS

Veteran
Mar 30, 2003
602
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I think there needs to be some clarification. When many speak of AFA.they are not talking about the UNION...they are referring to OUR AFA MEC leadership( Master Executive Council) I have no gripes with AFA as a union- in my opinion is its a GREAT association. The issue, for many, is our present leadership at Usairways. Im very proud to be a member of The Association of Flight Attendants and clearly understand the ramifiications of decertification. We would be making a BIG mistake to suggest anything so silly at this point. Lets stay focused and find a way to beat this mgmt team at their own game...PEACE
 
OP
PITbull

PITbull

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Dec 29, 2002
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----------------
On 4/9/2003 6:57:45 PM NAPAUS wrote:

I think there needs to be some clarification. When many speak of AFA.they are not talking about the UNION...they are referring to OUR AFA MEC leadership( Master Executive Council) I have no gripes with AFA as a union- in my opinion is its a GREAT association. The issue, for many, is our present leadership at Usairways. Im very proud to be a member of The Association of Flight Attendants and clearly understand the ramifiications of decertification. We would be making a BIG mistake to suggest anything so silly at this point. Lets stay focused and find a way to beat this mgmt team at their own game...PEACE

----------------​
NAP,

Agreed! We stick close together.