Can we Afford 15 bilion..... in Aircraft ?

chris perry

Veteran
Sep 17, 2008
544
119
The very day I hired on here in 1991,management was preaching we are going broke....management said ,use those welcome aboard passes quick...You will likely be laid off soon.... Its no wonder no one even takes managements word,Its useless!!!!!!!
20 years later same story different chapter. The answer is yes ,but at what cost to moral and pay scales.
 
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/07/08/can-american-airlines-afford-15-billion-worth-of-n.aspx

The Foolish bottom line
If American Airlines can work out the finances and the deal goes through, it will help position the company for the next decade of transcontinental business. As an investment, however, this is not the type of news that gets me excited. Show me a few quarters of strong financial performance and then maybe we can talk.
 
Some perspective is useful, as it is typically absent in posts such as yours.

In 1991, AMR paid $1.8 billion for fuel and $4.0 billion in wages, salaries and benefits.

In 2011, AMR will probably pay between $7.0 and $8.0 billion for fuel (maybe more) and will pay about $6.9 billion in wages, salaries and benefits.

In 1991, AA employed more people than today. In 2011, AMR will burn approximately the same amount of fuel as in 1991, when it paid $0.70/gal. This year, management has said that it expects to pay over $3.00/gal. In the first quarter of this year, AMR paid more for fuel than in all of 1991.

Given the sharp increase in fuel prices since 1991, can AA afford not to buy new fuel efficient planes? Would you rather AA continue to spend all its money at the fuel pump and then cry the blues to you or would you rather that AA attempt to control its fuel spending by acquring newer, more fuel efficient planes, leading to a possibility that there will be money left over with which to pay you?

As has been posted here since the beginning of this website, lenders will loan AA money to buy new planes, but not even the evil banks are so stupid as to loan AA (or anyone else) money to pay raises to employees. Planes can be repossessed if the payments are not made. Kinda hard to repo the employees.

Usually easy to borrow money to buy assets. Usually impossible to borrow money to increase operating expenses.
 
"American Airlines AMTs are the best of the best, and these gentlemen exemplify our high standards. We commend them for their excellent service over the years," said Jim Ream, American's Senior Vice President – Maintenance & Engineering. "For 50 years, our Master Mechanics have worked tirelessly behind the scenes to ensure the safety of our customers, employees and fleet. They have set a very high bar for future generations of AMTs."





............a shame they will NEVER be paid like "the best of the best"...................
 
well said, FWAAA.
.
AA and most of the rest of the industry have come to the realization that jet fuel is likely going to stay on average around $3...and likely peak much more than that. OPEC - as a cartel - will continue to raise prices as high as they can without stalling the global economy. Companies and countries that cannot adapt to the global reality of more expensive fuel will not survive... it's just that simple.

.
To throw in another number... just a five percent reduction in AA's fuel bill will reduce their total costs by $400 million per year.. .and the reduction could go a whole lot more than that. Add in that newer aircraft like the 320neo and 773ER also hold more people, AA's CASM will go down largely BECAUSE of using the latest technology.
AA has a massive job on its hands to get its business turned around... but there isn't a prayer in doing it while retaining over 200 M80s.
.
And once again, the whole reason AA is seeking cost reductions in fleet and operations is to avoid the nasty confrontation that would otherwise be necessary to reduce their employee costs.
.
And, no, AA employees will not pay for the cost of new aircraft... instead you will avoid future paycuts that AA would otherwise have to make if it had to keep its fuel efficient aircraft.
.
It is also noteworthy that AA's ability to compete effectively against WN in a couple years is absolutely essential as the Wright Amendment comes down. This aircraft buy and the potential for settling the employee contracts that are rumored to be occuring is AA's best - and perhaps last hope - at defending its most valuable asset - the DFW hub.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43714139?__source=yahoo%7Cheadline%7Cquote%7Ctext%7C&par=yahoo
How Southwest beat the Wright Amendment

"After the fray is finally over, despite a new maximum capacity of 20 gates, Southwest expects to launch an aggressive schedule of non-stop flights that will be coast to coast."
 
So you are actually are inferring that WN can do more harm at facility capped DAL to it's cross town rival AA at DFW than WN will be able to do to DL at ATL where they'll have twice as many gates and no cap?...

AA needs to replace it's fleet, but bringing Wright into the argument is laughable, especially if you've actually had to drive to DAL during rush hour to catch a flight. Make no mistake, there will be a few markets impacted, both positively and negatively. And not just for AA. There will be a much harsher impact on carriers who find themselves in a three way market with AA and WN...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
you might not want to believe that WN is a threat to AA's DFW hub but thankfully there are people running AA who believe otherwise and are prepared to not let the 2nd largest hub in the world be whittled to pieces by WN... as has happened in now FOUR other former AA hubs.
.
And despite the fact that you can't post a single fact that demonstrates how WN will inflict damage at DL, you continue to persist at holding onto that dream.
.
Apparently not all of the aviation industry is populated by whimps that roll over just because WN rolls into town... perhaps this time, AA will realize it needs to stand up and fight - or AA WILL be history.
.
AA mgmt does recognize there is more time to sit around and wait for a turnAAround plan... .these planes are part of the plAAn and with the changes labor has no choice but to make, AA might be able to start defending its territory again.
.
Since they have fallen to #3 in New York, ORD is under full low fare carrier assault, and STL has now fallen, it isn't a minute too soon to get this airplane deal done and the labor changes that can make the new planes turn AA around.
.
It's time for AA and its people to stand up and yield NO MORE of its TERRITORY to WN.
DL figured out how to do it years ago... their mid-90s restructuring was designed to be able to compete with low fare carriers with WN as the target carrier. By all measures, DL has succeed - and in so doing is neck and neck in size with WN as the two largest domestic carriers. And for those who want to trip over semantics, WN may carry more passengers but DL generates more revenue on their domestic networks - ask Wall Street which they care about.

I have every reason to believe AA has decided they have given up the last inch of their network to other carriers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
.Since they have fallen to #3 in New York, ORD is under full low fare carrier assault, and STL has now fallen, it isn't a minute too soon to get this airplane deal done and the labor changes that can make the new planes turn AA around.
.
It's time for AA and its people to stand up and yield NO MORE of its TERRITORY to WN.
DL figured out how to do it years ago... their mid-90s restructuring was designed to be able to compete with low fare carriers with WN as the target carrier. By all measures, DL has succeed -

Yes they shut down the DFW hub. That sure those those WN and AA bastards how to compete....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
you might not want to believe that WN is a threat to AA's DFW hub but thankfully there are people running AA who believe otherwise and are prepared to not let the 2nd largest hub in the world be whittled to pieces by WN... as has happened in now FOUR other former AA hubs.

Whittled to pieces?... That's revisionist at its best (deleted). WN moved into markets that AA abandoned. Had WN been in all of those markets before AA pulled out, you might have a shred of a point.


And despite the fact that you can't post a single fact that demonstrates how WN will inflict damage at DL, you continue to persist at holding onto that dream.

It's not a dream. It's an opinion. I know that's a foreign concept to you that people might form opinions and it's not always going to be based on hard facts, tangible proof, or statistics that paint a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt.

Regardless, it's pretty clear that AA replacing the MD80s once and for all will stem some of the red ink.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
Yes, DL did indeed close its DFW hub and made DFW a one network carrier hub for AA.
DL said that it made the decision to give up its 14% share of the local market in order to redeploy resources to grow the NYC market.
E has said multiple times that AA’s closing of several of its hubs in order to grow MIA, which some have called one of the most successful hub stories of the past decade.
Let’s sniff check what AA and DL have done in terms of network development over the past decade particularly, knowing that some of AA’s hub closures go back further.
DL gave up a 14% share of the DFW hub – a roughly $5B/year market but still has an 8% revenue share, which according to DOT data still makes DL DFW’s #2 airline based on revenue.
Over the past decade, the combined LGA/JFK market has grown 17% and is now a nearly $10B/year market… double the size of DFW. Over the past decade, DL’s share of the market has gone from 18% to 30% while AA’s has gone from 33% to 26%.
The NYC market – just the NY side – was and is a larger and faster growing market than DFW.
DL gave up about $400 million in local DFW revenue in order to gain over $1.1B in new NYC revenue.

Over the past decade, the Latin America/Caribbean market from the US has grown by 50%... by far the fastest growing global region from the US.
At the beginning of the decade, AA had a 45% share of a $7.5B market worth $4.8B/yr. AA’s efforts to hold onto its position in a region where it has invested a huge amount of resources and where it has remained the market leader is clearly the right thing to do.
Based on the most recent DOT data, AA now has a 39% revenue share of the LatAm/Carib market which is now worth $6.2 billion/year for AA.
Sounds like a great tradeoff for AA…. Close several hubs, focus on Latin America… and in the process gain $1.4B/year in new revenue. Until you consider what it cost AA…. They gave up $700M in revenue in NYC plus 1% of the entire US domestic market which has cost AA/AMR the equivalent of $1B in revenue.
And since deregulation, AA has given up its leading carrier position in 4 hubs – BNA, RDU, SJC, and STL. IN 2 of those four hubs, WN is now the largest carrier with AA the 2nd largest carrier; in 2 more, DL is now the largest revenue carrier with WN #2, meaning AA has fallen to the #3 carrier position.
So, AA’s revenue share of the US industry has fallen over the past decade as AA has thrown nearly all of its eggs into protecting its Latin franchise.
While retaining the largest revenue position in the fastest growing – but still smallest US aviation region, AA has sacrificed its position in every other region of the US – ironically except for Asia where AA’s revenue share has gone from 7% to 9% in a market that has grown almost as fast as LatAm – 43% - although other carriers have grown their revenue share faster.
Yes, I know some find the use of data boring – because it brightly shines the light on preconceived notions and puts them into their proper perspectives but aviation is after all a business and something such as market share, revenue gain, and the success or failure of closing hubs, redeploying assets etc should be measured by the results of those actions.
So, based on the claims that have been made about DL closing DFW in order to focus on NYC while AA closed multiple hubs – and now SJU – in order to strengthen its position in Latin America via MIA (and to be fair a great deal of AA’s LatAm growth has come outside of MIA, including NYC), DL made the better choice regarding redeploying its assets and gained more revenue.

Let’s take a time out boys…. For some reason you guys want to keep trying to hammer away at DL on the basis of its performance with its network… perhaps as if to attempt to defend my attacks on AA’s network moves. Reasonable enough response on your part.

Problem is that while you can criticize DL for a lot of things – no company does everything right – network strategy is NOT one of the things that you can realistically criticize DL for…. They have defended their original network from competitors better than just about everyone, they have grown their position into some of the most competitive markets in the industry, and they acquired leading positions in the top market regions in the world.
AA has done a lot of things right over their 80 plus years…. No one can doubt that the past 10 years have been the hardest in history for AA. Everyone wants things to turn around. Managing their network over the past 10 years - and largely since deregulation has not been where they have compared best to the industry.
How about instead of trying to attack someone else on the basis of AA’s own weakness right now, you simply admit that other carriers have done a better job on the basis of network management and then have the optimism – which I certainly do – that AA will turn things around?
Continuing to attack others in a futile attempt to demonstrate that they have failed only works if they really have failed, esp. when there are very factual ways to determine the accuracy of the statements being made - and it looks even worse when what you accuse someone else of is exactly where "you" have failed.

DL has not failed in its network development and revenue growth efforts over the past decade and that is probably why they moved from the #3 to #2 US airline and delivered some of the best earnings in the industry. It also explains why DAL has the highest market cap of any US network airline and has generated the best operating market among its peers over the past year. And also why DAL is worth 4X more than AMR.

AA will turn things around. They have a huge hole competitively to climb out of but talk of new airplane orders, labor agreement settlements, and major alliance wins can certainly help AA…. But AA's ability to turn things around has to be better than everyone else because others are doing some of the same things too including replacing their own fuel-inefficient aircraft. Should that stop AA? Absolutely not! AA has moved far too slowly for far too long as it is.

I wish AA well… always have… but I also know that the industry is highly competitive and that AA has to win its way back to a position of financial and network respectability in the industry.
Whether AA can put together and then use a turnaround plan in the next few months to change AA’s trajectory remains to be seen.
Just like the past 10 years, AMR will be measured by its performance on what it says it is going to do to turn things around.

and, E, if you want to form opinions on matters which are contrary to fact even when they can be substantiated by fact, then you should not be surprised when you are shown to be wrong... both now and repeatedly in the future.
.
Sometimes the best thing to do is admit you are wrong or at least quit going back to arguments which you are going to lose.... not sure why you seem to persist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
It's rather evident to me what the company is doing.

First, we have to understand that a business bankruptcy isn't the same as a personal bankruptcy in that for businesses, it's more of a strategic move rather than one out of necessity as a personal Chap. 13 or Chap. 7.

Second - replace all the aircraft you can. New aircraft means little (no pun intended) maintenance required - have a major layoff after throwing the TWU a bone for their "assistance" in keeping the rabble engaged arguing amongst themselves re: sham negotiations during the real negotiations with Boeing and Scarebus.

Third, file for Chapter 11 Protection, as all this was leading to - Boeing and Scarebus were aware and the contracts will be worded accordingly to ensure payment "in such an event". Eviscerate (if not eliminate) union contracts. Have another major layoff, selling overhaul as a business catering exclusively to AA and hire-back of those the "new" management wants.

There are a few new rules re: Chap. 11 as of 31OCT2005 - one can bet these are being/have been researched to the max to benefit the sloths of Centrepork.

Point to ponder - the pensions are secure - we are vested and won't lose what we've already earned as much as the union and company try to hint otherwise. Many have been "shaking with fear" over these damned things for the wrong reasons, ie, saving someone elses bacon. At the worst, the assets will be transferred to the PBGC which will dole out the monthly checks up to a maximum of $44k or so a year. The pilots will be screwed as will those levels of mismanagement not covered by the executive slush fund fired up in 2003 - the one Carty SUPPOSEDLY fell on his sword over - simply more theater and the TWU was complicit in these shenanigans also. A CEO DOES NOT move to do these things without the approval and instruction of the Board of Directors.

A major shake-up and pay cuts for all except the mismanagement, to be sure, but at least the friggin' TWU will (hopefully) be gone. I'm kinda looking forward to that - I've worked non-union before and I can be "nice" if necessary. Unfortunately, as stated by Eoleson in another post some time ago, the company's "management" is far too inbred to take advantage of the opportunity to save itself. This should, at least, make for some great entertainment in the months to come - almost as good as the Congress attempting to cover their butts after having given O'Bummer a blank check, but that's for another post.

If I don't make the cut, I retire and do something else. I've grown rather tired of the never ending drama, BS, and lies.

Came back to make a minor edit and saw that some little (no pun intended) darling didn't like my thoughts - poor baby.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
excellent post, Frank. Not sure who didn't like what you wrote but I'll give it my 2 thumbs up.

Yes, AA is essentially trying to accomplish the same restructuring out of BK that other carriers did in BK... which as you note is NOT the same as personal BK.
.
The primary focus of AA's employee related restructuring will be to reduce benefits costs and improve productivity.. which are the primary things the other carriers did in BK.
.
Just as AMR's pensions are guaranteed - based on premiums they pay to the PBGC - so were those of other network carriers. The PBGC also became a claimant in the BK cases based on the liabilities they incurred, so once again the notion that airlineswalked away from their liabilities w/o repercussions is simply not accurate.
.
BK laws have changed and AMR's position is likely such that they wouldn't gain a lot from a BK which is why they will likely gain as much outside as they can.
.
You are absolutely right about the fact that AMR is likely going to take a divide and conquer approach to these negotiations.. they know it takes the pilots and FAs to keep the planes moving and the revenue coming in... and those groups will be around regardless.
.
Yes, a not so subtle side effect of buying a bunch of new aircraft is that AA's maintenance costs will fall dramatically.... the change will take place fast enough that AA will be surplus and they can start rehiring in a couple years in a different environment... if there are mechanics who will come to work for US airlines by that point.
.
The point remains that AA is restructuring- assuming these rumors come to pass - 8 years after it started the process and long after the last carrier exited BK w/ a completed restructuring plan.

It is precisely because AMR's restructuring wasn't completed that they have been vulnerable to competitors and have not obtained the revenue benets of other carriers.
.
There is no logical reason to beleive that AA can complete its restructuring w/o some of the same pain that other airline employees have felt... and in some cases, those other airline employees are now beginning to enjoy some of the benefits of their restructured companies.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
Second - replace all the aircraft you can. New aircraft means little (no pun intended) maintenance required - have a major layoff after throwing the TWU a bone for their "assistance" in keeping the rabble engaged arguing amongst themselves re: sham negotiations during the real negotiations with Boeing and Scarebus.

Agree with much of what you wrote except this portion. The several year maintenance "holiday" these new planes would provide (until they need their first heavy overhaul - "heavy C check" as AA calls them) would enable AA to deal with the looming mechanic shortage that Bob Owens keeps talking about. As fewer mechanics are needed at TULE during the maintenance holiday, AA and the worthless union can negotiate a deal that entices more mechanics to move to the line from TULE, thus keeping the line fully staffed while AA looks for an off-shore provider like Aeroman in SAL to handle the heavy overhauls. That would enable AA to offer WN-style wages to the line.

I don't see the new planes enabling a "major layoff" that you mentioned - but the new planes will help keep AA's fleet in the air by helping with the line labor shortage.
 
Agree with much of what you wrote except this portion. The several year maintenance "holiday" these new planes would provide (until they need their first heavy overhaul - "heavy C check" as AA calls them) would enable AA to deal with the looming mechanic shortage that Bob Owens keeps talking about. As fewer mechanics are needed at TULE during the maintenance holiday, AA and the worthless union can negotiate a deal that entices more mechanics to move to the line from TULE, thus keeping the line fully staffed while AA looks for an off-shore provider like Aeroman in SAL to handle the heavy overhauls. That would enable AA to offer WN-style wages to the line.

I don't see the new planes enabling a "major layoff" that you mentioned - but the new planes will help keep AA's fleet in the air by helping with the line labor shortage.

I can (and won't) speak for the line - no clue as to how things are run there.

The bases are another item, however - I'd guess a 30-50% overstock of labor to satisfy the TWU's need for dues income from the higher numbers presently.