Carty and Remarks!

Hopeful

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Dec 21, 2002
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There you have it folks! Now Carty is saying that even with the deals in place, bankruptcy is not out of the question. Now, tell me. Why would anyone want to enter bankruptcy court already compromised?
 
OP
Hopeful

Hopeful

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eolesen:
So if AA goes bankrupt anyway after securing agreements form its unions, then where does AA get its further costs reductions from? AA will be forced to sell assets which translate into job cuts. You are putting too much faith into the legal aspects which are always subject to interpretation.
 

FA Mikey

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Aug 19, 2002
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Eric is right, IF you have a 1113 that says that. What APFA got was a list of further cuts it would be expected to take in BK. The 1113 further stated that it would try to maintain that but depending on the situation the may be forced to seek cuts beyond what is outlined in the 1113 filing.

All the groups have similar 1113 filing papers. They outline further cuts in BK.

AA has yet to be fair or try for a win win deal. APFA had a 340 million dollar proposal. In true dollars to give the company. Our team was fully prepared to do our part to avoid BK. AA said no way because it didn''t gut our CBA like they want.

APFA came back to the membership with a proposal, only because of the time frame and the threat of immanent BK. It is as it always is in this union for the MEMBERSHIP, to ratify or not.

I dont know if they can say or not. But call APFA and ask to speak to one of the national officers and ask them how they are voting? Odds are its NO.
 
It''s called a S.1113 letter. If you have a negotiated reduction agreement prior to bankruptcy, and the company says it will not seek further concessions in S.1113, that is likely to be honored by the court.

This is exactly how Hawaiian''s bankruptcy is being handled. Their management has gone on record saying that Hawaiian''s labor unions will not be asked to provide any further cuts than what they agreed to and implemented prior to filing.

But that''s just my non-lawyer opinion.
 

WXGuesser

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Hopeful:

In that situation, I believe a lot of additional cost reductions will come from renegotiations of things like vendor contracts, aircraft leases (especially for all those aircraft parked out at places like MHV), etc. That''s the reason I have stated all along that AA will likely go into Chapter 11 even if we do approve the concessions. But instead of being a process of further brutalizing the employees (much, anyway), it would likely be a pre-packaged kind of deal to help reduce the massive debt load.

In that case it is unlikely to result in numerous additional layoffs.

TANSTAAFL
 

RV4

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Aug 20, 2002
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eolesen,

Exactly how much does AA pay you to use company property and company time to post your thoughts, feelings, and opinions on this website?

Most of us cannot even read the USAToday online at work because of need for more productivty. AA changed the proxy authorizations to remove many sites from our company computers.

I have no problem with your posting of your mind, I just wonder how much AA pays you to do so?

 

DLFlyer31

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Aug 20, 2002
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On 4/11/2003 8:56:20 AM Hopeful wrote:

eolesen:
So if AA goes bankrupt anyway after securing agreements form its unions, then where does AA get its further costs reductions from? AA will be forced to sell assets which translate into job cuts.
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No. BK would give AA the ability to get relief from creditors. Outside of labor, another major cost are all the leases AA has on planes, gates,etc. Plus, you can renegotiate with all your vendors and contractors.
 

bigbusdrvr

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Mar 2, 2003
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Just remember from USAIRways experience, they will come back in bankruptacy for more if they think they need too!! s1113 notwithstanding they will threaten ch7!!!
 
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On 4/11/2003 8:56:20 AM Hopeful wrote:

You are putting too much faith into the legal aspects which are always subject to interpretation.

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I''d prefer not to see the legal aspects put to the test, but I also have to believe that the legal process normally works to the letter and intent of the law.

Bankruptcy is a legal process. Sure, there''s room for interpretation, but there''s also a growing amount of case precedent which molds those interpretations.
 

MrMarky

Advanced
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On 4/11/2003 8:27:44 AM eolesen wrote:

It''s called a S.1113 letter. If you have a negotiated reduction agreement prior to bankruptcy, and the company says it will not seek further concessions in S.1113, that is likely to be honored by the court.



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Hi Eric,

Did AA provide such a letter to the unions as part of these negotiations? I know that US Airways did except maybe to the IAM, but I haven''t read anywhere that such a letter of protection from AA has been part of the TA they have reached with the APA, APFA and TWU. If not, then those contracts are all fair game in a BK regardless of what was negotiated and/or approved by membership vote prior to BK.

In my opinion the union membership would be foolish to vote yes on the contract revisions without such protection in place, especially when Uncle Don is saying the company may file even if the amendments are approved.

Take care,

mAArky
 

WXGuesser

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On 4/11/2003 3:49:18 PM MrMarky wrote:


Did AA provide such a letter to the unions as part of these negotiations? I know that US Airways did except maybe to the IAM, but I haven''t read anywhere that such a letter of protection from AA has been part of the TA they have reached with the APA, APFA and TWU. If not, then those contracts are all fair game in a BK regardless of what was negotiated and/or approved by membership vote prior to BK.

In my opinion the union membership would be foolish to vote yes on the contract revisions without such protection in place, especially when Uncle Don is saying the company may file even if the amendments are approved.

Take care,

mAArky

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mAArky:

It''s in the TWU T/A. This link to the TWU-ATD page:

http://www.twuatd.org/aarestructure/Bankru...onAgreement.htm

TANSTAAFL
 
Aug 20, 2002
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On 4/11/2003 10:16:51 AM bigbusdrvr wrote:

Just remember from USAIRways experience, they will come back in bankruptacy for more if they think they need too!! s1113 notwithstanding they will threaten ch7!!!

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Weren/t most of those further cuts the result of the DIP financer (Bronner) threatening the workers for more cuts or "I/ll pull the financing and liquidate the airline!"?
 

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