China Flights- will it happen ?

usfan

Member
Nov 4, 2006
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just found this article ......
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/front_page/...China_card.html

Posted on Wed, Nov. 7, 2007


US Airways plays its China card
In a space dispute with Phila. airport, it said it might not proceed with Beijing flight plans.
By Tom Belden

Inquirer Staff Writer

US Airways threatened yesterday to scuttle its plans to provide nonstop flights between Philadelphia and Beijing if airport officials allow Delta Air Lines to move into a disputed terminal.
The threat drew jeers from city and airport officials, who had supported the airline's application for federal approval of the route because it would provide the region with direct flights to the capital of the world's fastest-growing major economy.

"We're just trying to be fair to all our carriers, with great deference to US Airways," City Aviation Director Charles J. Isdell said. "But they can't have their way all the time."

Andrew Nocella, US Airways' senior vice president for planning, said in an interview that the airline might also trim its European flights next summer if Delta is allowed to move as scheduled next week to Terminal A-East. US Airways has said the terminal, used for domestic and international flights since it opened in 1991, should be for international flights only. The airline has also argued that Delta operations could interfere with US Airways operations.

Officials from the airport and the airline - Philadelphia's largest, with more than 60 percent of the traffic - have argued for 18 months over how to accommodate Delta's request to cut its costs by moving to less-expensive gates and other space in the terminal.

"We thought from Day One this would be resolved," Nocella said. "We are just shocked" that Delta's move is proceeding, he said.

Delta's move would give more gates to Southwest Airlines, which now shares space in Terminal E with Delta. Southwest has indicated that it wants to start flights to cities it does not now serve from Philadelphia if it can get additional gates.

Isdell said that if US Airways carried through on its threat, it would be "a tremendous disappointment to everyone who supported the application for the China route, and an unnecessary disappointment at that."

US Airways leases 68 of the airport's 120 gates for domestic flights, and had access last summer to 17 additional airport gates for international service.

At the peak of last summer's vacation season, it operated 20 round-trip flights to Europe. Only a dozen of the European flights operate year-round.

US Airways received approval in September from the Department of Transportation to start the Philadelphia-Beijing service in spring 2009. The application received enthusiastic suport from city and state business and political leaders, including Gov. Rendell and Pennsylvania's U.S. senators.

City Commerce Director Stephanie Naidoff, Isdell's boss, said she shared the airport director's disappointment and believes the airline will be able to operate its international service efficiently with the gates it will have available.

The airline has rejected several proposals by airport officials to accommodate US Airways' overseas flights, including adding a wing to the main international concourse, Terminal A-West, within a couple of years, Isdell said.

Another rejected proposal would have provided US Airways with a fleet of high-level buses, called passenger transport vehicles, which allow flights to load and unload away from an airport gate when one isn't available. Airline officials said congestion in the ramp areas near its gates makes the plan unworkable.

In a statement issued by spokesman Charles Ardo, Rendell said he hoped the dispute could be reconciled, "but ultimately it's up to the parties, the city and the airport, to work things out."

Nocella said US Airways needed to begin working now to acquire new long-range Airbus jets capable of flying the almost-7,000-mile China route. That and other planning for the flights requires the airline to know this year that it will have a gate available for the service in about 17 months, he said.

"This is not about Southwest" and its effort to get more gates in competition with US Airways, he said.

Nocella said US Airways has recently started looking more closely at using its hubs in Charlotte, N.C., and Phoenix for more of its international service because of what it considers a shortage of gates at Philadelphia International.

Airline analysts, however, say US Airways has focused its overseas growth at Philadelphia because the region's large population provides more business than the other hubs.

Isdell said US Airways has proposed several ways to keep Delta and other airlines that have only domestic service in the airport's D and E terminals. "But none of those alternatives really work," he said, for numerous legal and practical reasons.

Mayor-elect Michael Nutter asked US Airways executives in a statement "to refrain from taking such drastic action until the next mayor has time to get a full briefing on the situation.

"This is not a time for threats," he said. "It is a time for cooperation."
 
Good for them. Playing hardball in negotiations...I like it
Please don't make me laugh. Hardball, US needs China service more than PHL needs US.

US needs the Beijing flight because it will make tremendous amounts of profit.

This is a bad bluff pure and simple. If US follows through they will garner more heat from the politicians and find themselves with very few friends in Washington.

On the bright side, another carrier can apply for their frequencies.
 
Of all the flights to threaten to cut if US doesn't get the gates to themselves, isn't it stupid to suggest that they will move the PHL-China flight? Can US even switch from PHL to CLT or PHX? I thought that the China route awards were more restricted (and conditional - could the DOT take the award away from US if they try to switch PHL-Beijing to CLT-Beijing?)? To me this seems like US is pointing a gun to its own head and saying: "If you don't do as I say I'm going to shoot myself!" IMHO it would be better to threaten to move some of the Europe routes to CLT (or PHX) since EU is more or less open skies. Regardless, I think the city of PHL has the upper hand here, I think they know that there is no chance US is dropping/switching the PHL-China route.
 
I would contend that US should be given a better deal than PHL is trying to give them. I've said it before and I'll say it again, US put some of its OWN money into the construction of the International Terminals. Did WN??....no...they weren't even serving PHL at that point. And DL is trying to say that they "want" to move to lower costs, etc. BS!! They were asked to move for WN, which was fine for them because they go to a better terminal, whatever. They probably didn't really care if they moved or not. But then all of the sudden they realize that it could compromise US's Transatlantic operation (i.e., put less pressure on their JFK operation) and all of the sudden it is so important for them to move. And did DL put money into the international terminal.....highly doubtful.

There is a PRESENT demand for international flights out of PHL, so they should not put domestic operations into the international terminal when there is a current need for more international gates. I find it laughable that the city is even contemplating this....what is one of the biggest factors that can contribute to economic gains for a city?? Having an airport with a large array of non-stop cities served, especially international routes. That brings foreign investment to the city, overseas headquarters, possibly new corporate headquarters......its a great thing for the city. US knows this...and this is why they are playing their China card....good move. Will WN's expansion bring any new cities served for PHL? Doubtful. They will either enter cities US already serves or just pour on more frequencies to Florida. What is a bigger gain for the city....a few more daily flights to FLL, TPA, MCO, MHT, RDU, MDW??? Or Beijing, Istanbul, Moscow, Tokyo, Tel Aviv, Mumbai, Delhi...you get the point.

This is not trying to be a cheerleader for US or anything....its about practical business sense to me. Its also about being fair to those who helped you build the terminal. You can play the "PHL promised the world to WN when US looked like it would go under card" or US sucks at PHL, but I'm not buying it anymore. Times change...and whats best for the city is an array of international destinations....not more domestic.
 
Here's a response from US about the article:

The Philadelphia Inquirer is reporting today that US Airways may give back its authority to fly PHL-China because international gates may not be available – the result of decisions by PHL airport officials to boost domestic flying in Terminal A at the expense of international operations. These news reports are true, and may become an unfortunate reality.



We’ve told the airport authority, city and Commonwealth officials that if the airport moves Delta domestic flights to three international gates, we will 1) have to reconsider international expansion from PHL next year, and 2) withdraw our authority for PHL-China service that we hoped to begin in spring of 2009.



This would be unfortunate, but it’s a business reality. If the airport dedicates three international widebody gates to domestic narrowbody flying, there just won’t be enough international gates at PHL to operate reliably. We know what it’s like to try to run an international operation at PHL without enough gates. We tried “nesting†flights at PHL this past summer to work around the gating issue, with very poor results (a 30 percent on-time performance for nested flights). Just do the math: if we ran an unreliable operation this summer, imagine the impacts if we try to run a larger one with three fewer gates.



We’ve pledged that we wouldn’t subject our customers or employees to an unreliable international operation again. That’s why we aren’t willing to invest $1 billion in airplanes, training, product and planning for the China route -- starting now – without the certainty of appropriate facilities.



PHL officials have suggested people movers, gate reconfigurations, flight cancellations and schedule changes to work around the gate issue. These simply do not work. The right answer is to keep international flying on international gates, and domestic flying at domestic gates. This is standard practice at every major airport we serve in the U.S.



We’ve presented the city with options that demonstrate there is enough room at PHL to accommodate robust domestic service and a global gateway. Philadelphia could have the best of both worlds: strong domestic flying and international flying that generates millions of dollars in economic benefits for the entire region.



We haven’t given up. US Airways and Philadelphia worked hard to win this award together, and in that spirit of partnership, we hope to find a solution. We’ll continue to work for an agreement right up until the time the airport finalizes its decision, and we’ll keep employees posted as these events unfold.
 
If Southwest wants more gates and capacity why don't they use the people movers and remote stands?
 
Exactly. Bus passengers out to their 737 to TPA, not to an A340 to China.

If they drastically need to accomodate Southwest, then US should reduce RJ frequencies and upsize aircraft. Move Republic to F. Move Star Partner UA to B/C, Delta can move into thier gates on D. Why on earth you would have a bunch of Comair RJs at the international terminal is beyond me. The entire situation is ridiculous. Like someone said above- what's better for the city, Beijing and Moscow or more Tampa and Midway? Hello, Philly, that's an easier choice than Pat's or Geno's.
 
....................... What is a bigger gain for the city....a few more daily flights to FLL, TPA, MCO, MHT, RDU, MDW??? Or Beijing, Istanbul, Moscow, Tokyo, Tel Aviv, Mumbai, Delhi...you get the point.

PHX PHLyer

A lot of good points. I hope PHL and Eastern PA understand that. In western PA they are not too savey in creating business opportunities. This in not just about the US Airways relationship but their overall ineptness to build and/or compete with other cities.

As far as their relationship with US Airways in Western PA there is plenty of blame on both sides for the demise of air service at PIT.
 
Maybe PHL knows that PHL is really all US has as far as international expansion goes. Charlotte-Copenhagen or Phoenix-Istanbul just isn't going to work. They know that US threats about China are probably just that. Still don't understand why they would want to disrupt the city's only chance for more intl service in return for more of what they already have tons of.
 
Still don't understand why they would want to disrupt the city's only chance for more intl service in return for more of what they already have tons of.

Exactly. What if the city goes through with giving WN & DL the gates...and US moves operations to CLT and PHX. What is going to happen when PHL all of the sudden comes around and wants more international service? You think other international airlines are clamoring to get into PHL? Not exactly. US is their best and only chances for these international flights.....WISE UP! You are not JFK.

Do they even know what other airports would do for opportunities like this?!?!?! They would bend-over backwards. How PHL can be giving US a hard time for what they want is beyond me.
 
Do they even know what other airports would do for opportunities like this?!?!?! They would bend-over backwards. How PHL can be giving US a hard time for what they want is beyond me.

This is so funny on so many levels. :lol: PHL is the city that has far fewer conventions than it should because the city allows the unions to make it difficult for conventions and shows to come here. US has screwed PHL over and over and over again and I'm sure they don't mind spiting the city to screw US. PHL does not need US--if US leaves, someone will take its place. US can't even handle its TA operation appropriately, what makes the city think that US will be able to handle a flight to China on a non-existant plane. Those city workers must be US FF's too because they realize that when US makes promises it won't follow through. So, right now, the city should be scared because US is going to stop its ONE and ONLY flight to China (that won't start for another 1 1/2 years) using a plane that doesn't exist--maybe the city will give them a gate that doesn't exist. :rolleyes:
 
what's the matter poor dougie and his boys don't get there way and they start to cry good .how does it feel to be treated let dirt like you treat us. goahead make threats. i see 3 options for doug and the gang at this time 1. sell the airline seems they can't run it 2doug it's time to go ahead and resign. or 3 shut and just get the airplanes and fly the route.
 
Did anyone analyze US' position on China? Most Asian routes leave in the morning to mid-day on the east coast. This is before the banks of flights coming from Europe, so there should be gate empty to handle it before the Europe flights. I think it shows more management incompetence in not being able to plan and execute on a plan as a reason for thier inflexiblity.

A people mover unfortunately is a way of life in international flying. In ATH this summer I walked off a US flight and onto a bus. I recently flew back from NRT to LAX and again my international flight was met by not even a people mover, but a bus. I think it goes more that US and Tempe are arrogance and belief they can push people and cities around. Doug tells PIT this summer no more cutbacks, then six weeks later claims millions of loses. US's creditability just isn't there in Pennsylvania.

Perhaps competent management is what needs to be replaced.
 
Maybe PHL knows that PHL is really all US has as far as international expansion goes.

I'm sure that's exactly what they're thinking. But they might want to keep in mind that a PHL without China, India, or S.American service and a (relatively) limited European presence will almost certainly be discarded in the next wave of mergers, in favor of IAD, JFK, etc. It might end up that way, but with a greater intl presence, it would atleast stand a chance.

On top of all of this, PHL does not have the infrastructure to support another 40-60+ flights on WN. WN has clearly shown that they have no intention of flying long-haul out of PHL, so it's basically going to amount to more seat-dumping on flights to FL and MDW. In fact, most of their PHL flights are rumored to be doing quite poorly anyways. As it stands now, there should be a few open gates for WN -- D10 is unused and FL will not need 4 gates now that it has cut BOS.

I have a question regarding all of this gate swapping, maybe someone knows the answer: Is DLs move to A-East permanent or will they move back once the hammerhead on E is finished?

If they are moving back, then I don't see what the big fuss is about, but I'm pretty sure that isn't the case.
 

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