CO Will Start IAH-FRA Nonstops On Nov. 1, 2009

[Cosmo]

The press release was issued earlier this morning (read it here). The flight will link two major Star Alliance hubs (once CO joins next year, of course ) as a part of the planned CO-UA-AC-LH joint venture.

 

[FWAAA]

Good news!

Just more evidence that antitrust immunity with transatlantic partners usually results in more native flying and not less. The APA (AA pilots union) has spread fear among AA pilots and other employees that the AA/BA/IB ATI application will result in less AA metal across the ocean. Hill is a liar and an idiot.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

Hasn't Lufthansa flown this route for years?

 

[boxer]

Hasn't Lufthansa flown this route for years?

LH and UA has competed (within 5 minutes) on this route from SFO for years.

 

[jimntx]

Hasn't Lufthansa flown this route for years?

Yes. LH has one nonstop/day, IAH-FRA. It is codeshared with UA. I went to Travelocity and just picked 15DEC as departure and 22DEC as return date. The LH/UA cheapest fare was $1865. CO, DL, and NW all showed fares of $800-$990 (with one stop of course, in EWR, ATL, or DET). $1000 for the convenience of non-stop service seems a little high in this economy.

Even with CO as part of Star Alliance, I suspect those fares will come down when CO starts service.

 

[TheWatcher]

Continental's B767-200 will be competing with Lufthansa's B747-400 on this route. This route runs with a heavy load factor. Its very popular with people connecting in FRA from India and Pakistan.

 

[PHL]

I wonder if it will be weight restricted on Winter Westbound trips. That seems to be a long stretch for a 762.

Although, with only 174 seats versus 197 that USAirways crams into the same exact airplane, that might be all the weight savings CO needs to make such distances without worrying about a fuel stop in Gander.....

 

[FWAAA]

Continental's B767-200 will be competing with Lufthansa's B747-400 on this route. This route runs with a heavy load factor. Its very popular with people connecting in FRA from India and Pakistan.

It won't be competing with LH; it will be cooperating with LH and UA, as part of the UA/LH antitrust immunity agreement. They will share revenues and coordinate pricing and schedules.

I wonder if it will be weight restricted on Winter Westbound trips. That seems to be a long stretch for a 762.

Although, with only 174 seats versus 197 that USAirways crams into the same exact airplane, that might be all the weight savings CO needs to make such distances without worrying about a fuel stop in Gander.....

IAH-FRA-IAH is actually a short jaunt for a 762, which has a range of about 6,600nm, more than 2,000nm farther than the trip from FRA. I wouldn't expect weight restrictions or refueling stops.

 

[TheWatcher]

I wonder if it will be weight restricted on Winter Westbound trips. That seems to be a long stretch for a 762.

Although, with only 174 seats versus 197 that USAirways crams into the same exact airplane, that might be all the weight savings CO needs to make such distances without worrying about a fuel stop in Gander.....

Weight restrictions are very possible, think cargo. One of the reasons for LH increasing the aircraft size on this route was do to the amount of cargo as well as passenger traffic. Oil drilling equipment and materials arent known for being light weight.

PHL-LGW is shorter than IAH-FRA, yet US Airways had that route weight restricted on their B767-200's. I think that was also due to cargo.

CO will indeed be competing with LH on this route. I dont believe for one second that they are starting this service just to "cooperate". Doesnt sound very business savy

 

[FWAAA]

CO will indeed be competing with LH on this route. I dont believe for one second that they are starting this service just to "cooperate". Doesnt sound very business savy

Completely incorrect. Doesn't much matter what you "believe." CO is initiating this service as part of its transition to Star Alliance and its inclusion in the Star ATI scheme. By November 1, 2009, when this flight is set to begin, CO will be a part of the UA/LH/CO antitrust immunity agreement, permitting all of its members to fix prices among themselves. A CO press release explaining it for those who missed this huge news:

Continental Airlines, United Airlines and Eight Star Alliance Members Ask U.S. DOT for Antitrust Immunity to Better Serve Customers

WASHINGTON, July 23 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Continental Airlines (NYSE: CAL), United Airlines (Nasdaq: UAUA) and eight other Star Alliance member airlines today filed an application with the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) for Continental to join the group of nine carriers that already hold antitrust immunity. Approval by the DOT would enable Continental, United and the other immunized Star Alliance carriers to work closely together to deliver highly competitive flight schedules, fares and service.

Additionally, Continental, United, Lufthansa and Air Canada have requested DOT approval to establish a trans-Atlantic joint venture to create a more efficient and comprehensive trans-Atlantic network for the carriers' customers, offering customers more service, scheduling and pricing options and establishing a framework for similar joint ventures in other regions of the world.

The DOT has approved more than 20 applications for antitrust immunity in the past, including the recent approval of immunity for six-way alliance activities in trans-Atlantic markets for the SkyTeam carriers Air France, Alitalia, CSA Czech Airlines, Delta, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines and Northwest Airlines. The DOT ruling allowed Delta/Air France and Northwest/KLM to consolidate their alliance activities.

On June 19, Continental announced that it plans to join United in Star Alliance. In the United States domestic market, where antitrust immunity would not apply, the two airlines plan to begin broad code-sharing, which facilitates the creation of itineraries using both carriers, as well as frequent flier program, elite customer recognition and airport lounge reciprocity. These cooperative activities are subject to notice to the DOT, which the two carriers will submit separately in due course, and Continental exiting certain of its current alliance relationships. Subject to these matters, Continental currently anticipates that it will join Star Alliance, and begin broad code-sharing and other commercial cooperation with United, in the fourth quarter of 2009. There is little overlap between the Continental and United networks, so customers of either airline will benefit from access to a broader network available through the partner airline.

Once approvals have been received and the new agreements have been implemented, customers will benefit from a coordinated process for reservations/ticketing, check-in, flight connections and baggage transfer. Frequent flier reciprocity will allow members of Continental's OnePass program and United's Mileage Plus program to earn miles in their accounts when flying on either partner airline and redeem awards on both carriers. Travel on either carrier will count toward elite customer recognition. Similarly, each carrier's qualifying customers will have access to both Continental's Presidents Club network and United's Red Carpet Club network of airport lounges.

Continental intends to transition from SkyTeam to Star Alliance in a customer friendly way, permitting its customers to redeem their OnePass miles on SkyTeam member airlines, and SkyTeam customers to redeem their frequent flyer miles on Continental, during a reasonable transition period.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?...&highlight=

NW and KLM haven't competed over the Atlantic for more than 15 years now, and neither will CO and LH. That's the whole point of ATI. The *A members will compete with OneWorld and the Leftover Alliance (Skyteam), but they will not compete among themselves. They will jointly decide schedules, pricing, split revenues and profits, and generally act as one, not as competitors.

Cargo causing weight restrictions westbound from FRA to IAH? Not likely. Only 200 statute miles farther than AMS and EZE, both of which are flown by CO with 762s. If FRA was 6,500 miles, perhaps. But at just 5,200 miles, CO will be able to max pax and bags with room to spare. Cargo volume has been down by double digits at most airlines the past couple of months - and with a recession, that's not likely to end soon.

 

[TheWatcher]

FWAAA


Are you aware of the majority of the types of cargo that moves between IAH and FRA? AMS and EZE are not major shipping points of such equipment and materials. I understand your complete desire to build up alliances and how they benefit US carriers using their own metal across the pond to futher convince others that alliances are not a bad idea. Im already onboard with that one FRA is a major shipping point to destinations in Asia which are direct recipients of such equipment and materials. I have no problem with the Star Alliance and wished that Continental was a part of it long long ago. Continentals entry into the Star Alliance is more beneficial for me, my company, and industry

I do believe the two carriers will compete as they are serving the same route. Cooperation would be a funneling of traffic on a route neither serves such as IAH-MUC. Continental can fly that one and funnel traffic to LH, its future partner in EU, to feed LH flts out of MUC and that would be cooperative.

Just flying the same route that your partner carrier flies in order to have cooperation is nothing short of a recipe for disaster! It does nothing to protect jobs, market share, or common sense, which more often than not, is lacking in the world of airline management

 

[FWAAA]

If you think that the ability to fix prices, coordinate schedules, share revenues and profits equals "competing," then I'm powerless to guide you out of darkness and into the light of knowledge.

The whole point of the ATI granted to Skyteam and Star Alliance is so those airlines' execs won't be imprisoned for "restraining trade," which is what they're doing.

But if you want to believe that two companies who have been told by their respective governments that they may break the antitrust laws with the governments' blessings will nonetheless "compete" against each other, like I said, there's nothing I can do to convince you.

Of course I'd like to see AA/BA/IB granted the same power as the other alliance already have. THAT will finally allow OneWorld to compete against Star and Skyteam, instead of forcing AA to compete with BA, its major alliance partner.

 

[BoeingBoy]

PHL-LGW is shorter than IAH-FRA, yet US Airways had that route weight restricted on their B767-200's. I think that was also due to cargo.

FWIW, US' 767-200ER's have lower MTOW than later versions - only 351K lbs. The later deliveries (90's) were ordered with the same MTOW as the first one for standardization - nobody at the time thought more than that would be needed. I guess the latest versions of the -200ER have a MTOW of 395K lbs.

Jim