Company serves up crap offers to pilots

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American offers pilots union 2 separate proposals
Posted Monday, Nov. 14, 2011
BY ANDREA AHLES
[email protected]

American Airlines gave its pilots union two contract proposals late Monday as the Fort Worth-based carrier increased the pressure on pilots to approve a tentative agreement by the end of the week.

The airline said both offers to the Allied Pilots Association, which came after the two parties took a weekend break from negotiations, included pay raises and job protection for pilots in exchange for increased productivity and operational flexibility.

"As pilots look at the components of the proposal, there may be some who describe it as concessionary," the company said in a message posted on its negotiations website late Monday evening. "The reality is that in virtually every area of the proposal, we have offered industry-leading terms."

Officials with the pilots union declined to comment on the company's proposal Monday, as its board of directors will review it when it meets today.

A tentative agreement would cover about 10,000 pilots.

American, which has been losing money, has been pressuring the pilots union to agree to a tentative contract deal before the board of directors of AMR Corp., its parent company, meets Wednesday.

Bankruptcy rumors have buffeted the company's stock in recent months.

"It seems increasingly likely that AMR will fail to reach agreements with its unions soon enough and effective enough to keep the company out of bankruptcy," Gimme Credit analyst Vicki Bryan wrote in a research note Monday. "AMR's operating trends are deteriorating at an accelerating pace, draining its already razor-thin liquidity and even more limited options."

Issues on which the company and the union remain far apart include a new pension structure for new pilot hires, sick and vacation time, and more exceptions to domestic code-sharing, which allows American's passengers to book tickets that connect to flights on other carriers.

Pilots are worried that American wants to expand its ability to code-share with domestic carriers, particularly JetBlue Airways, for flights on the East Coast. American's passengers arriving on international flights at New York's JFK Airport and Boston's Logan Airport can connect on JetBlue flights to certain cities where American does not offer nonstop service.

On Friday, the APA had offered a pay proposal with a 10 percent signing bonus and then 7 percent raises each year in the next three years.

American's latest "option A" proposal:

Offers a 4 percent average signing bonus, and then a 3 percent raise at 15 months, a 2 percent raise at 30 months and a 2 percent raise at 45 months.

Removes the hard monthly flying cap and creates an average monthly flying range of 72 to 83 hours with immediate productivity gains.

Gives pilots the choice of keeping their pension plans or changing to an age-based contribution plan.

Increases medical benefits with employee costs at 22 percent, increasing to 25 percent by the end of the contract.

Its "option B" proposal:

Offers a 5 percent average signing bonus, and then a 4 percent, 2 percent and 3 percent raise in year one, two and three, respectively, of the contract.

Removes the hard monthly flying cap and moves to an average monthly flying range of 72 to 83 hours with productivity gains phased in over the contract.

Immediately freezes pilots' pensions in the primary plan.

Keeps employee medical benefit costs at 19 percent through the contract.

"We hope our pilots will have an opportunity to vote on what the company has put forward," the company said. "Right now, it's not a tentative agreement. It's a comprehensive proposal that can turn into a tentative agreement if APA chooses to do so."

While there is no agreement with the pilots, the carrier did reach a tentative contract agreement with its dispatcher group Monday.

About 180 dispatchers and "operational coordinators" are represented by the Transport Workers Union. The two sides have been in negotiations since May 2006, the longest of any of American's labor groups. Details of the agreement were not released.

"Both parties worked collaboratively to reach a tentative agreement that addresses the interests of our TWU-represented dispatchers and the company," said American spokeswoman Missy Cousino.

American has a tentative agreement with its fleet services group, which will vote on the contract in December.

It is still in negotiations with its flight attendants and mechanics unions.
 
What wil it be....

A. proposal A

B. Proposal B

C. Shrink airline, cancel airbus and 773, and reinstate pre-2003 contracts

D. Bankruptcy 2.09 -0.05 (-2.34%) 9:38AM EST
 
IT appears that the biggest changes AA wants come from a combination of medical and pension costs.
 
What wil it be....

A. proposal A

B. Proposal B

C. Shrink airline, cancel airbus and 773, and reinstate pre-2003 contracts

D. Bankruptcy 2.09 -0.05 (-2.34%) 9:38AM EST


D. Bankruptcy....They keep offering crap to all the unions, then the only way they will get what they want and more is filing Ch. 11...
 
D. Bankruptcy....They keep offering crap to all the unions, then the only way they will get what they want and more is filing Ch. 11...
I am downgrading this stock to overweight pos, it appears the shorts have control, and we are in a downward spiral. JMO I am a #### house analist just like you guys!

D. Banckrupcy
 
This is the problem AA has backed themselves into. Their contract proposals are not that much different from an imposed contract in Ch. 11.

Much like the other work groups, everyone realizes that there is nothing we can do about a Ch. 11 filing, and nobody even cares anymore.
 
This is the problem AA has backed themselves into. Their contract proposals are not that much different from an imposed contract in Ch. 11.

Much like the other work groups, everyone realizes that there is nothing we can do about a Ch. 11 filing, and nobody even cares anymore.

True, but I do believe they will take more in bankruptcy by either freezing or terminating the pension for current employees. That would be the big difference between agreeing to their demands or being force fed a new contract in bk court!
 
This is the problem AA has backed themselves into. Their contract proposals are not that much different from an imposed contract in Ch. 11.

Much like the other work groups, everyone realizes that there is nothing we can do about a Ch. 11 filing, and nobody even cares anymore.
Yes you may be correct.
I have contacted my broker and have requsted paper AMR share certificates. I am going to take them to Mexico, and attempt to buy a blanket and a cheap bottle of tequilla, and prepare myself for the cornholing.
 
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True, but I do believe they will take more in bankruptcy by either freezing or terminating the pension for current employees. That would be the big difference between agreeing to their demands or being force fed a new contract in bk court!
The "pension" should have been frozen long ago simply to remove a point of fear from negotiations, both pilot and . I have no problem with a defined contribution arrangment but I realize others do simply because they were unwilling to save, want to be taken care of, or were spoon-fed bad information by our wonderous "representation".
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-15/american-offers-pilot-contract-with-vote-call.html?cmpid=yhoo

The company would like this offer taken to a vote.
I say why not? Let the membership turn it down so all parties can move on..

I do not think that by bringing it back to the membership shows weakness on the part of the union. Take a vote and REJECT it!



Let the members speak with their votes!
 
This is the problem AA has backed themselves into. Their contract proposals are not that much different from an imposed contract in Ch. 11.

Much like the other work groups, everyone realizes that there is nothing we can do about a Ch. 11 filing, and nobody even cares anymore.
Don't be so sure what will or not be imposed in chap. 11. Maybe after other airlines seen what happened after we bought TWA . They will just chop up the assets. (P.S your not a asset)
 
Over 5 million shares traded in less than 1 hour, stock hit 1.87. I wonder if insiders are dumping or institutions? Dont have LVL 2 to check.
 
D. Bankruptcy....They keep offering crap to all the unions, then the only way they will get what they want and more is filing Ch. 11...


This is the problem AA has backed themselves into. Their contract proposals are not that much different from an imposed contract in Ch. 11.

Much like the other work groups, everyone realizes that there is nothing we can do about a Ch. 11 filing, and nobody even cares anymore.

Don't be so sure what will or not be imposed in chap. 11. Maybe after other airlines seen what happened after we bought TWA . They will just chop up the assets. (P.S your not a asset)

Exactly. Be careful of what one asks for. BK could prove to be much, much worse! Besides lawyers, no one wins in BK. There is so much history as to what happens in BK. Its bad!


The "pension" should have been frozen long ago simply to remove a point of fear from negotiations, both pilot and . I have no problem with a defined contribution arrangment but I realize others do simply because they were unwilling to save, want to be taken care of, or were spoon-fed bad information by our wonderous "representation".

I actually agree (maybe a first), but I'm not so sure if the pensions could have been frozen.

I don't think the union heads are being realistic:

"“I don’t see us moving off that figure,” Hoban (union spokesman) said on Nov. 13. “It’s a pretty reasonable offer.”

"Jim Corridore, a Standard & Poor’s equity analyst in New York, said yesterday that an accord that includes the pilots’ pay plan would help drag AMR into bankruptcy. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-15/american-offers-pilot-contract-with-vote-call.html

Practically EVERY single independent analyst has stated the unions proposal isn't even remotely reasonable. I don't know just which reality representation is in???
 
Practically EVERY single independent analyst has stated the unions proposal isn't even remotely reasonable. I don't know just which reality representation is in???

You mean all of those "labor friendy" analysts that are always bitching and moaning about the "overpaid and underworked" union members? What a shocker that they would say that a pay proposal that would leave us 25% LOWER than discount airline Southwest would just completely destroy American Airlines. Maybe an Oscar for best drama queen is in order.

The bottom line is, if AA wants their Christmas list, they are going to have to take it from us in bankruptcy court. We are not going to give it to them. End of story.

I think it is interesting that AA is floating these turds while the TWU is voting to ratify. This could be a strategy to help "motivate" a yes vote.
 
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And somebody thinks the union is being unrealistic? Are you kidding me? Take a good look at what they offered for Captain pay on the A319, $139 Hour. The LLC Spirit Airlines pays $164 Hour for the same job. What clown would think AA is serious.

It's already been covered on this board. The pilots are willing to phase in productivity issues with retirements that are happening quickly and ramping up in 2 years. Moving the average age downwards will add in benefits of less vacation time and lower medical costs with a younger workforce. UAL/CAL are deep into negotiations right now, their pay is going up as well as DAL in a few years. SWA is a competitor as well as a comparison for pay as well as work rules. AA will probably get a majority of SWA productivity rules phased in over a few years. World wide salaries are also going up for lack of qualified pilots, even with 500 hour First Officers. Pilot costs are going up.

Wake up people. AA is mouthing off to everybody about pilot productivity. Here are a few domestic flying statistics for December:

Average scheduled hours per flying line: 72.47 hours, they can schedule 78 hours
Average days worked per month: 13.88 Days per month. SWA pilots can fly 82-85 hours in the same days worked per month.

AA doesn't max pilot productivity today, they won't do it tomorrow. It's just a B.S. statistic to cover up their own business decisons.
 

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