Delta at YYZ

737823

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Jun 5, 2010
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Just flew DL to YYZ and was both surprised and disappointed they don't have any mainline service even to ATL and no service whatsoever to SLC. No Skyclub either and contracted employees. There was a young lady checking in for a flight with an onward connection on another carrier and it took the counter employees awhile to sort out her record (not entirely sure what was going on). Anyway, this is Canada's largest city, key business destination and one of the largest air travel markets in North America why can't Delta have more than a few RJs? Could they at least send E175s or CRJ-900s to BOS? The current offering is uncompetitive especially at the prices DL charges, AC provides AVOD and PD offers comfortable seating on their Q400s and a light meal with free wine/beer too. AA has a much larger presence with mainline service and an Admirals Club. Usually fly Porter but was visiting family in the burbs and had a voucher to burn on DL that was expiring. Didn't NW have mainline employees and mainline flights pre-merger?

Josh
 
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QA4Jet-A

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Just flew DL to YYZ and was both surprised and disappointed they don't have any mainline service even to ATL and no service whatsoever to SLC. No Skyclub either and contracted employees. There was a young lady checking in for a flight with an onward connection on another carrier and it took the counter employees awhile to sort out her record (not entirely sure what was going on). Anyway, this is Canada's largest city, key business destination and one of the largest air travel markets in North America why can't Delta have more than a few RJs? Could they at least send E175s or CRJ-900s to BOS? The current offering is uncompetitive especially at the prices DL charges, AC provides AVOD and PD offers comfortable seating on their Q400s and a light meal with free wine/beer too. AA has a much larger presence with mainline service and an Admirals Club. Usually fly Porter but was visiting family in the burbs and had a voucher to burn on DL that was expiring. Didn't NW have mainline employees and mainline flights pre-merger?

Josh
Josh, just sit back for a few and the answers will be coming as soon as the Delta Pro from Dover pipes up!
 
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Kev3188

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Right in the middle.
Just flew DL to YYZ and was both surprised and disappointed they don't have any mainline service even to ATL and no service whatsoever to SLC.

I'm as surprised as you are. Just went and looked at the full schedule for the city, and thought for sure there'd be an A320 or 2 you missed...


Could they at least send E175s or CRJ-900s to BOS?

I don't think you'll ever see that, but I'd at least think an upgauge in A/C size (and/or a corresponding reduction in frequency) to any of hubs is reasonable. Maybe with the drawdown of CRJ-200 flying, it'll happen?


Didn't NW have mainline employees and mainline flights pre-merger?

Yes and yes.
 
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WorldTraveler

Corn Field
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The answer is rather short and obvious...
not every airline has the same relative position in every market as they have on their system overall. DL is number 3 of the 4 US network airlines in terms of seats at YYZ.
AA has historically been very strong in YYZ.
UA has a Canadian joint venture partner.
DL and AA share Westjet as the same partner.
Did you notice that YYZ is the only major North American market that DL chose NOT to operate from LGA? They decided to leave the market to WestJet who they figure is well equipped to compete against AC in one of the most valuable transborder business markets. Oh, and WestJet ponied up a bunch of cash for the privilege. Far be if from DL to get in their way.

AA's DFW and MIA hubs are longer than most RJs can fly - plus AA has very few large RJs and no 76 seat versions, which constitute DL's ATL schedule. AA and DL have approx. the same number of seats to their largest hubs; DL just does it with more frequencies.

DL has operated M88s between YYZ and ATL in the past. DL also flew YYZ-SLC on an M90 before the merger. There are now two northern tier hubs much closer to YYZ.

BTW, did you know that YYZ is one of the most expensive airports in the Americas (and the world) with respect to airport charges? Combined with the high transborder taxes, many Canadians cross the border and fly out of US airports.

You're really DISAPPOINTED by the level of a service a particular airline as at any airport? Really, Josh?
 
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737823

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The answer is rather short and obvious...
not every airline has the same relative position in every market as they have on their system overall. DL is number 3 of the 4 US network airlines in terms of seats at YYZ.
AA has historically been very strong in YYZ.
UA has a Canadian joint venture partner.
DL and AA share Westjet as the same partner.
Did you notice that YYZ is the only major North American market that DL chose NOT to operate from LGA? They decided to leave the market to WestJet who they figure is well equipped to compete against AC in one of the most valuable transborder business markets. Oh, and WestJet ponied up a bunch of cash for the privilege. Far be if from DL to get in their way.

Who is #4? Star Alliance partner US Air?

DL serves many markets from LGA and there are also many markets they don't serve. You do realize Toronto is an incredibly international city, major financial & business center, and has a fairly large affluent base? All of which contributes to air travel. Take a trip to downtown Toronto, $1mm condos going up left and right, new Shangri-La, Four Seasons both opening by year end and new Ritz-Carlton opened last February.

AA's DFW and MIA hubs are longer than most RJs can fly - plus AA has very few large RJs and no 76 seat versions, which constitute DL's ATL schedule. AA and DL have approx. the same number of seats to their largest hubs; DL just does it with more frequencies.

DL has operated M88s between YYZ and ATL in the past. DL also flew YYZ-SLC on an M90 before the merger. There are now two northern tier hubs much closer to YYZ.

UA flies a mix of E145/CRJ-700 to IAH, no mainline to speak of. For years CO exclusively sent E145s and that's more than a three hour flight. It could be done if AA wanted. Obviously not to LAX but DFW and perhaps MIA with CR7s.

BTW, did you know that YYZ is one of the most expensive airports in the Americas (and the world) with respect to airport charges? Combined with the high transborder taxes, many Canadians cross the border and fly out of US airports.

I'm not surprised just like everything in Canada. Sure some do travel to BUF, DTW (Windsor) and SEA (Vancouver area) many still fly from YYZ, especially business travelers.

You're really DISAPPOINTED by the level of a service a particular airline as at any airport? Really, Josh?

Considering I paid nearly $400 for a 45 minute flight on a dumpy all Y CRJ with duck taped seats, a dirty tray table yes I was a bit disappointed. Porter is a much better value, they have clean modern aircraft, friendly personnel who are happy with their jobs and provide great service with a smile. Why doesn't DL have a Skyclub in Toronto? Fortunately I have access to the Admirals Club with my membership regardless of the carrier I fly but what do DL passengers have access to? Not a huge deal but it seems if DL wants to be courting business travelers this is an amenity they value and something they should provide in key markets. Just surprising since AA has a club while both UA and US provide access to the Maple Leaf lounge through Star Alliance partnership.

Josh
 
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737823

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I'm as surprised as you are. Just went and looked at the full schedule for the city, and thought for sure there'd be an A320 or 2 you missed...




I don't think you'll ever see that, but I'd at least think an upgauge in A/C size (and/or a corresponding reduction in frequency) to any of hubs is reasonable. Maybe with the drawdown of CRJ-200 flying, it'll happen?




Yes and yes.

Indeed it is surprising. Looks like the only DL mainline to Canada is seasonal service to YVR from ATL, DTW, MSP, and SLC.

Josh
 
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WorldTraveler

Corn Field
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Not sure what your point is... are you disappointed that AA can only mount a single daily flight to Frankfurt, Germany or doesn't serve Hong Kong even on a joint venture basis let alone w/ its own metal? ...That UA is so small in the US SE and they don't serve JNB?

Really, some things in markets are just what they are.

I don't expect ANY airline to serve more of the world than they can profitably serve - and there are historical and strategic advantages that other carriers have in Canada that DL doesn't have - and the same applies to other countries where DL is stronger than others.
It just is. Airlines got in lots of trouble in the past trying to bite off more than they could profitably digest.... and airline employees paid the biggest price for those strategic mistakes.

While you ponder reality, how about you consider the impact of adding 8 mainline trips to the US-Canada market which is what happened when WestJet started service to LGA. You might also want to consider that WestJet added its code to a number of DL markets at LGA and operates at DL's expanded LGA terminal. The addition of all that extra capacity to the US transborder market is bound to have a seriously negative effect on fares - and DL benefits by gaining connecting passengers for its LGA hub w/o being involved in the slugfest that is bound to have the greatest effect on every airline that operates in the NYC-Toronto market. And DL benefits because it was able to convince the DOT to allow the slot divestiture to go to a bid process involving all carriers able to serve LGA - including Canadian carriers - which allows DL to development deeper relations with a Canadian process - exactly the reason why UA is able to have more seats on lots of flights, even if on lots of RJs.
DL serves other Canadian cities from LGA.

DL does serve just about every market from LGA that is served by other carriers. If you find more than a couple examples where that is not true, let me know.
You do know there is a perimeter restriction that restricts the distance of flights from LGA?

Did you notice that Air Canada has pulled a few transborder markets recently? Suppose they recognize that the competition with Westjet over the next couple of months will have a major effect on AC's finances? BTW, WestJet also added ORD in partnership with AA which is bound to have an effect on a key Star alliance route.

AA and DL are both vying to develop deeper relationships with WestJet who is adding capacity to the US market. This is not the time for DL to be concerned about whether they have mainline aircraft or a Clown Room at YYZ.

The new DL pilot agreement allows very few RJs to be flown on routes as long as YYZ-MIA and DFW even if RJs can physically do it. I don't think AA's new pilot agreement (proposed) has limits on distance RJs can fly - but good for pilots unions for not allowing RJs to operate 4 hour flights except on a very limited basis. And DL has an internal policy that they do enforce that they do not use 50 seat RJs on flights over 2.5 hours (I think).

Because DL uses CR9s w/ FC and Economy comfort at twice or more the frequency, they have more premium seats on ATL-YYZ than AA has on either MIA-YYZ or DFW-YYZ, increasing DL's ability to serve premium passengers.

Putting 717s on some of the CR9 flights from ATL is very reasonable as the CR9s and CR7s w/ first class are moved to the shorter DTW and MSP flights - as well as JFK.

BTW, I know YYZ well. I had LASIK surgery there 5 years ago.... and have been told multiple times in checkups w/ other eye doctors since then that the surgery was one of the best they had seen.
YVR is one of our family's favorite cities in the world.

My only beef with Canada is that their immigration and customs officers treat Americans like 3rd world visitors even though we share the world's longest peaceful border. One immigration officer, several years after my Lasik surgery, doubted that I had been in YYZ for laser surgery and made me wait while they tested my glasses, failing to comprehend the concept that many people post-Lasik still use reading glasses. We're talking Soviet-style passenger screening.

Other than that I love Canada. And I have managed to get where I want in Canada every time on DL.

One more thing....
The DL-AF/KL/AZ joint venture DOES include Canada which means that DL shares revenues with its European partners on Canadian and European passengers that never set foot on US soil or check in at the DL ticket counters. ON that basis, DL via its JV partners, operates about a dozen widebody flights per day from Canada.

Keep on eye on the Canadian aviation market, Josh. The final chapter has still not been written.
 
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wings396

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I just gotta ask ya Josh, is there anything that doesn't disappoint you when it comes to air travel? You piss and moan just about everytime you fly, yet you go back for more. Me thinks that you are just a professional complainer......
 
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700UW

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Ok this makes no sense if a person doesnt fly on DL no airline partner will give DL money from that passengers trip.

And I bet Josh isnt even paying for his ticket, its probably his employer, yet he gets to earn, keep and benefit from the miles I bet.
 
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737823

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Ok this makes no sense if a person doesnt fly on DL no airline partner will give DL money from that passengers trip.

And I bet Josh isnt even paying for his ticket, its probably his employer, yet he gets to earn, keep and benefit from the miles I bet.

Generally for business travel that's how it works, the company/client pays for the ticket and the traveler retains the miles. I actually paid myself for this ticket, was visiting family that's generally not a reimbursable expense. Besides, I earned all but 2000 skymiles for this trip which are largely worthless.

Josh
 

WorldTraveler

Corn Field
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Ok this makes no sense if a person doesnt fly on DL no airline partner will give DL money from that passengers trip.


not sure what doesn't make sense... but I suspect the same answer to the question of why DL doesn't have any mainline aircraft at YYZ this summer (even though they have in the past, even since the merger) is the same reason why DL actually DOES make money even w/o a passenger flying a DL aircraft.
And this answer and reasoning applies to the YYZ market and the unique circumstances that have occurred this year.

- DL and US tried for 2 years to get the DOT to approve the slot swap w/o divesting slots. DL and US essentially wanted to pick the winners of who got the slots - remember they proposed a division of slots at one point among several carriers. WN came in and said they could use them all DL and US convinced the DOT to do a slot auction - and for it to apply to all carriers who could serve LGA, which includes Canadian carriers.
- DL had been trying to get a Canadian partner for some time.... AA got WS to partner w/ AA first, but not to be left alone, DL wanted in too - just like AA and DL split AS on the west coast. DL knew how much WS wanted into the NYC market... they tried before but failed.
- You and I won't ever read the transcripts of said meeting but I am pretty sure that DL basically told WS that if they won a set of slots, DL would give WS access to DL's new hub at LGA, reducing the risk WS had in launching flights solely on a point to point basis. DL needed feed for is new LGA and was happy to have WS' help - esp. w/ mainline aircraft. DL also would win by dividing WS with AA, minimizing the competitive gain AA would gain in a market where they were already stronger (BTW, DL did the same thing w/ Gol in Brazil... but DL bought 4% of Gol and gained exclusivity. Doesn't matter though since AA will probably gain an exclusivity partner with TAM through the LAN-TAM merger - but UA will end up w/o a major partner in Brazil). The point is that airlines continually try to one up each other... and DL used the slot swap and WestJet's successful bid as the means to develop a stronger relationship with WS. WS turned around and added new ORD service which provided strength to AA, but it still deepened the relationship with WS.
- WS paid $17M (I think that is the right figure) for slots for 8 roundtrip flights... that is a lot of money. Presumably, US got the money for the LGA slots while DL got the money for the DCA slots - which B6 bought along w/ another set of LGA slots - but still, the slot swap added alot of money for DL and US, who also kept WN out of the process because they didn't bid high enough.

When you consider the value of the slot swap in allowing DL to grow its size in NYC and in deepening its relationship with WestJet, in this case, DL gained a whole lot strategically by not flying LGA-YYZ w/ its own (or DCI) aircraft.

Further, when you factor in the extra dozen or so new mainline flights that WestJet has added to LGA and ORD this summer w/ connections throughout the US, it makes all the more sense why DL is not interested in using mainline aircraft in YYZ for this summer – and perhaps for quite some time into the future. Not to lose out to WJ, Air Canada has added frequencies to NYC as well... and you also note the Porter service which has proven popular and which is yet one more set of new flights.

The NYC-Toronto market is a mess right now and someone is likely going to bleed cash before it all settles down again. And the effects are not going to be limited just to NYC.
 
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WorldTraveler

Corn Field
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Josh,
it's not YYZ but DL is apparently going to expand in YVR in 2013 according to airlineroute.net.

Update at 0700GMT 18AUG12
DELTA starting 06JUN13 is launching new New York JFK – Vancouver nonstop service, on board Boeing 737-800 aircraft. Flight schedule is appearing in Sabre at time this post goes to press, while reservation for this new route will be opened shortly.
Schedule:

DL1393 JFK0820 – 1135YVR 738 D
DL1356 YVR1145 – 2030JFK 738 D
 
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737823

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Josh,
it's not YYZ but DL is apparently going to expand in YVR in 2013 according to airlineroute.net.

Update at 0700GMT 18AUG12
DELTA starting 06JUN13 is launching new New York JFK – Vancouver nonstop service, on board Boeing 737-800 aircraft. Flight schedule is appearing in Sabre at time this post goes to press, while reservation for this new route will be opened shortly.
Schedule:

DL1393 JFK0820 – 1135YVR 738 D
DL1356 YVR1145 – 2030JFK 738 D

Thanks. Too bad it doesn't start before ski season, was hoping to make it up to Whistler this year. I guess YVR is largely a summer destination for many and its a great city. I love walking around Stanley Park, its one of the best urban parks in North America. Is CX the only carrier serving that route? I haven't taken the CX flight but it must be great to fly CX F or CX new J for a transcon flight.

Josh
 
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WorldTraveler

Corn Field
Dec 5, 2003
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I agree about Stanley Park and the whole urban experience in YVR.

Do you go to Whistler every year? You've mentioned skiing in UT as well, IIRC.

Expedia shows both AC and UA have nonstops EWR-YVR at least on Saturdays this time of year.

I would think that CX doesn't draw the best local traffic JFK-YVR given the very late hour... also not sure if they try to cater to the local JFK-YVR market. The prices even for Business class are very high and their coach fares are quite a bit more than AC or UA.

I'm not really sure why they continue to operate that segment given that they serve JFK-HKG several times daily nonstop.
 
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