Delta pilot strike

[luvthe9]

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/051115/delta_pilots.html?.v=2

 

[Ch. 12]

"Thank God they're not managing the country also," Moak said of Delta.

Wow! Can you imagine a country run by pilots?! It would even be worse than the current administration yeah...that bad!!!



And what a convincing article..."we are not bluffing". That's the whole point of bluffing...to pretend you're not. But if they're NOT bluffing, that is complete idiocy. The power to put a company out of biz sits in that decision.

 

[DL Gold Medallion]

I thought the same thing. It's not as if they are going to admit it if it is a bluff. That would negate the whole point.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Wow! Can you imagine a country run by pilots?! It would even be worse than the current administration yeah...that bad!!!
And what a convincing article..."we are not bluffing". That's the whole point of bluffing...to pretend you're not. But if they're NOT bluffing, that is complete idiocy. The power to put a company out of biz sits in that decision.

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Ch. 12,

To your statement; "But if they're NOT bluffing, that is complete Idiocy", I would simply ask you,
"When is ENOUGH, ENOUGH " ???????

NH/BB's

 

[DL Gold Medallion]

"When is ENOUGH, ENOUGH " ???????

That's up to the individual. It's a free country. When you've had enough, you find yourself a new job with a better company. I truly do not understand why people fight so hard to work for a company they claim to despise. If my company screwed me, I'd be out the door in a minute and have another job (probably higher paying) in an hour.

 

[LGA Fleet Service]

If my company screwed me, I'd be out the door in a minute and have another job (probably higher paying) in an hour.

That isn't as easily accomplished by someone flying large commercial jet aircraft now is it?

 

[DL Gold Medallion]

That isn't as easily accomplished by someone flying large commercial jet aircraft now is it?

Whose fault is it, exactly, when someone knowingly chooses a field so specialized that they can't get a job outside that field with comparable pay and so unionized that they can't get a job at another company in the same field regardless of their qualifications?

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

Well, if no one went into the field, then where would you be?

The point is, the pilots are free to strike, and very well may do just that. Regardless of their decision, whining from the frequent flyers isn't going to change one single pilots mind.

 

[767jetz]

Just my 2 cents worth…

IMO the industry has reached (or is close to reaching) the bottom and the pendulum is going to start swinging the other way. (albeit slowly). It always has and always will. With Jet Blue on the verge of losing money for the first time, Southwest seeing downward pressure on earnings, and fuel prices retreating, conditions are leaning to a gradual increase in fares. DALPA has more leverage than pilot groups at USAirways and United did. Notice I said MORE leverage, not LOTS of leverage.

In the past I was of the opinion that DL pilots rode the coattails of UA’s difficult contract negotiations by always letting us go first and setting the bar. I am pleasantly surprised to see them standing up for what is right. I think that DL is overstating the need for concessions and underestimating the actual value of what they are asking for. (A typical hard-line negotiating tactic.)

Let’s be clear. I am not hoping that DALPA goes on strike and shuts the airline down. I do hope they use their right to strike to its full potential, to minimize the damage to their contract and quality of life. I think that they are a in a good position to find middle ground between the company’s ask and the pilot’s offer.

Good luck to all.

767jetz

 

[DL Gold Medallion]

Well, if no one went into the field, then where would you be?

The point is, the pilots are free to strike, and very well may do just that. Regardless of their decision, whining from the frequent flyers isn't going to change one single pilots mind.

I'm not disputing their right to strike, nor am I whining. Having a right does not mean it's smart to exercise that right. Pointing out that fact is not whining.

 

[Ch. 12]

======================================================================


Ch. 12,

To your statement; "But if they're NOT bluffing, that is complete Idiocy", I would simply ask you,
"When is ENOUGH, ENOUGH " ???????

NH/BB's

Have you not noticed the extremely adverse market conditions in the industry? Where have you been since deregulation? Reductions are NECESSARY to stabalize the industry and this can no longer be an industry held hostage by labor negotiations. I would simply ask you, "When do you start allowing real-life market conditions rule the negotiations? (rather than a desire to maintain an inflated wage/headcount that only continues to be detrimental to the industry)"??????

Use the rally cry when times are good and mgmt really does try to stick it to the employees but this is not one of those times. And it isn't just a DL issue...it is the entire INDUSTRY. You have to know when to pick your battles and this is a rather selfish one that is already taking pax away from DL just through pure speculation of action.

 

[KCFlyer]

Have you not noticed the extremely adverse market conditions in the industry? Where have you been since deregulation? Reductions are NECESSARY to stabalize the industry and this can no longer be an industry held hostage by labor negotiations. I would simply ask you, "When do you start allowing real-life market conditions rule the negotiations? (rather than a desire to maintain an inflated wage/headcount that only continues to be detrimental to the industry)"??????

Use the rally cry when times are good and mgmt really does try to stick it to the employees but this is not one of those times. And it isn't just a DL issue...it is the entire INDUSTRY. You have to know when to pick your battles and this is a rather selfish one that is already taking pax away from DL just through pure speculation of action.

You know, a few years ago, I would have (indeed I'm sure I did) said "if you don't like it, leave and do something else". But what's facing this industry is something that wasn't completely caused by "overpaid labor". Management of just about every airline is more focused on market share and load factor (butts in seats) than they are about profitablity. Sure...most of the majors are running near 80% load factors - and still not showing profits. IMHO, a part of that is a result of that "butts in seats" mentality. It manifests itself in "training" the consumer to hold out for a better price. Two weeks out and the flight is only 50% full (all of them "advance purchase" tickets)....hold a giant fare sale to get the load up to 75%. Why would someone pay for a $600 transcon when the odds have historically favored a deep discount to a $198 round trip about 2 weeks out? So the public has come to "expect" $198 transcons, and considers anything else to be a "ripoff".

Now combine that the airlines that have filed bankruptcy, cut costs, and began offering even MORE deep discount tickets. I don't know about you, but if I were an airline employee working for an airline that had to file bankruptcy because they weren't profiting at a $198 transcon, and I was forced to cut pay and benefits to become "competitive" at $198 transcon rates, and then watched my airline start offering $150 transcons...I'd be more than a little pissed off.

Labor's given about as much as they can give without dropping to a level where they qualify for Medicaid for insurance and food stamps to eat. The next round of "pain" really needs to come from the traveling public. And if it means in the short term that there is a reduction in demand, then some employees will have to take a furlough and planes need to be parked to meet what demand exists. When the public has be "retrained" not to expect to fly to Europe for $200, I think demand will pick back up...the "new" fare wouldn't be THAT much higher than the older fare, but they couldn't expect last minute "fire sales" either. And they'd go ahead and book.

I'm not talking about raising the advance purchase fares to $1,000 - but I am suggesting that perhaps it's better if an airline offers a limited number of advance purchase seats - and sticks to it...so that when the plane takes off - it's taking off at a profit. I really liked Crandall's idea for value pricing...The low fares were still a bargain, but if you didn't pick one up 21 days in advance, then you were going to pay the next highest fare...and so on...but the absolute highest fare would not be so high that a business would try to accomplish their mission with a conference call instead of a face to face meeting.

So yeah, I might end up stuck in San Juan for a few days, and yeah, it'll be an inconvenience. But I can't say that I don't understand the reasons for the decision that might strand me. Because I kinda do.

 

[Ch. 12]

KC-

I cannot disagree that labor in general is compensated at not-the-best-of rates (though they mostly are still above other industries' comparable positions), but this thread is on the pilots and you cannot tell me that those that average 167k...I said AVERAGE...are making that amount fairly in a destitute industry. And that isn't a 160 hour month that would be the minimum most of us would see...it is less. They have seen pay raises in an industry that has seen fare reductions.

As far as market share goes...that rules any industry, unfortunately. If you don't have the market, you cannot control the price and you are just a ragdoll. AMR is one that has played the market share game quite nicely. Unfortunately in this industry, the barriers to entry are essentially nil, in fact it can be argued that start-up carriers are enticed to enter it. So I cannot fall back and say that mgmt is to blame and I cannot say that labor is to blame. But both must make rationale business decisions and pilots threatening a strike b/c they don't want to make much less than 167k per year is ridiculous. DL cannot handle a strike and the mere threat of one is already quite bad for business. That is just not logical business sense.

Now...if we want to point fingers in the market share game, I'd have to go against the "newbies" on this one. They (WN, FL, F9, B6) are the ones that have flooded markets and eroded the legacy's shares. But please don't take that as an argument that I do not like those carriers...I do and think the legacies need to allow themselves to learn something from these models. But I am just stating from where the market share issue has arisen.

 

[KCFlyer]

KC-

I cannot disagree that labor in general is compensated at not-the-best-of rates (though they mostly are still above other industries' comparable positions), but this thread is on the pilots and you cannot tell me that those that average 167k...I said AVERAGE...are making that amount fairly in a destitute industry. And that isn't a 160 hour month that would be the minimum most of us would see...it is less. They have seen pay raises in an industry that has seen fare reductions.

Normally, I would agree that anybody making $167k could afford a cut. But then again, I sometimes think about the "lean years" involved in a piloting career. They aren't hired in at a major carrier at $167k per year. Before they are hired in, they are either in the military (not the highest paying profession) or they are building hours working for less than healthy wages. Once they do hire in at a major, they are looking at a mandatory retirement at age 60. So while they do earn a good paycheck once they hit the big leagues, the period that they have to actually make that much money is limited.

Aside from the wage cuts, consider that they are also most likely looking at a pretty big haircut on their pension. And I think pointing to a Southwest or Jetblue, who don't have pensions, is a bit unfair...because they have other primary retirement vehicles that they have been a part of since their date of hire. You have a pilot working towards a pension who finds that pension to be a fraction of what he or she was expecting, then saying "do a 401K like the LCC's". That's great to tell new hires - they can focus on the 401K as their primary retirement vehicle. But is it fair to tell a 55 year old pilot the same thing?

 

[WorldTraveler]

First, KC, the reason fares continue to be so low is because the industry CANNOT get capacity out of the system unless planes are at the end of their economic life. UA and US both tried to reject a lot of planes but they ended up staying in the fleet, although at much lower rates. DL and NW will undoubtedly lower their aircraft ownership costs considerably but they are not expected to dramatically reduce their capacity. And remember that the capacity they are reducing is essentially connecting capacity over their hubs – capacity that they uniquely can control. The combined reduction of connecting capacity at several network carriers may add up to increased fares but likely only in connect markets – where LCCs largely do not play and where costs are disproportionately too high.

Second, 767, yes, the tide is probably turning w/ even the LCCs showing signs of needing to raise fares or risk losing money. However, we aren’t there yet which is precisely why all of the legacies are grabbing as much as they can and locking it in for a good long time. However, there are still lots of seats in the air and consumers are only willing to fill so many seats at higher fares. It is likely that we will slide into the bottom of the airline industry cycle within the next 2-3 years and even the amount of traffic that does exist will not be enough to fill the capacity in the market. And, even if things do turn around, remember that the legacy airlines will still have lots of debt to pay down and will have invested very little in their businesses for a number of years. The airlines might stop the bleeding but they are far from returning to the profitability that characterizes the “upâ€￾ portion of the cycle where we are supposed to be right now. Failure to address costs and manage capacity now in preparation for the next downturn will only increase the pain when the bottom falls out – as it always does.

Third, one’s salary is always a relative figure. Although humans can live in many types of situations, we generally do not adapt very well when we move from one situation to another. The absolute compensation is not the key statistic but rather the amount of change that one has or will endure. A large amount of change is what is being required in order to stay in the airline industry and the option, quite simply, is to find a job in another industry.