Downward Spiral?
- Thread starter emily
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SoldWholeSale
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Yea! Common you guys, join the club! Get those costs up, furlough some pilots, put some planes in the majave like a real airline.......
What on earth are you people thinking, treating customers so well? Innovation doesn't belong in the airline business! Didn't any of you read hard landings? How can you get caught in the classic labor/cost/mismanagement undertow if you don't follow protocall?
What on earth are you people thinking, treating customers so well? Innovation doesn't belong in the airline business! Didn't any of you read hard landings? How can you get caught in the classic labor/cost/mismanagement undertow if you don't follow protocall?
local 12 proud
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yea come on guys, your no different than a grey hound bus driver perhaps you should just "work for food" and generate more profits for the corporate kings. hell in no time you could possibly trade that single wide in for a double!SoldWholeSale said:Yea! Common you guys, join the club! Get those costs up, furlough some pilots, put some planes in the majave like a real airline.......
What on earth are you people thinking, treating customers so well? Innovation doesn't belong in the airline business! Didn't any of you read hard landings? How can you get caught in the classic labor/cost/mismanagement undertow if you don't follow protocall?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't people been saying roughly the same thing about Southwest for years? And yet, even with pay scales compareble the "legacy" carriers, Southwest continues to be profitable.
IMHO, JetBlue (and AirTran, Frontier, etc.) could raise their pay scales to the same or higher than the network carriers tomorrow and still make money. Why? Partly because they offer an attractive product at a price people are willing to pay, and partly because they are feeding on a long-standing disdain of the network carriers (justified or not, it seems that it's fashionable for the Feds, Local Government, newspapers, and the public at large to hate legacy carriers).
Either way, the LCC's labor (and other) costs won't be approaching the legacy carriers' any time soon (if ever), so the only way for network carriers to survive is to close the cost gap as much as possible and offer a product that customers percieve as offering more value than the LCCs. Admitedly a tall order, but a heck of a lot more realistic than praying that "major league" management-labor disharmony comes to the LCCs in our lifetimes (or, at least, careers).
IMHO, JetBlue (and AirTran, Frontier, etc.) could raise their pay scales to the same or higher than the network carriers tomorrow and still make money. Why? Partly because they offer an attractive product at a price people are willing to pay, and partly because they are feeding on a long-standing disdain of the network carriers (justified or not, it seems that it's fashionable for the Feds, Local Government, newspapers, and the public at large to hate legacy carriers).
Either way, the LCC's labor (and other) costs won't be approaching the legacy carriers' any time soon (if ever), so the only way for network carriers to survive is to close the cost gap as much as possible and offer a product that customers percieve as offering more value than the LCCs. Admitedly a tall order, but a heck of a lot more realistic than praying that "major league" management-labor disharmony comes to the LCCs in our lifetimes (or, at least, careers).
Of course, if you look at the long-term view, once the efficiencies are wrung out of the system, the LCCs will start to battle it out based on their labor costs. Of course, we're many years away from that marketplace, but it makes for interesting idle mental exercise today.
Unlike so many other carriers, JetBlue pilots are not in the habit of "demanding" anything. This sort of self serving gimmeee, gimmeee, gimmeee, attitute is what has gotten so many airlines into trouble in the first place. And it's not just the pilots either by the way.emily said:
One of the things that makes JetBlue very unique in this industry is the mutual respect that management and employees have for one another. It is a relationship that has been built on honesty and trust. Management at JetBlue has said on many occasions that they could indeed pay the pilots more money. With that being said, they are cautious about doing so. Why? Again it goes back to trust. If for some reason the financial picture turned sour, one of the absolute worst things that could happen is to ask for a pay cut. Ask anyone who has been through one. Nothing will destroy morale and trust quicker.
It is obvious from the tone of your post that you have probably been the victim of a wage cut. For that I am truly sorry. I do not wish that on anyone. However, pointing fingers and trying to place the blame elsewhere is not the solution to your woes.
As for what you call a "reasonable wage". Tell me just what is a "reasonable wage" anyway? In your opinion of course. Is it what Delta makes? AA? CO? AW? AS? SW? US? F9? etc. etc. I think you will find that most JetBlue pilots are very satisfied with the current wage level and don't find it "unreasonable" at all.
Corporate culture is vital for survival. I applaud JetBlue management for trying to avoid the internal pitfalls that have ruined morale and trust at so many other airlines. JetBlue has thus far proven that it is on the right track. It's a corporate philosophy that others would be wise to emulate.
V1
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Dang! You guys are so gullible (which isn't a real word according to the Websters Collegiate Dictionary - Unabridged)!
This has been hashed over so much, but you are still ready to jump right in when a windup artist tosses out some bait.
Search the boards here and at flightinfo.com and you'll see this ground has been covered over and over.
Add this one to the list of windup questions:
When are you going to pay for your planes?
Why are you flying for free?
When does Airbus stop paying the pilot salaries?
Do you have a contract?
Why do you think you can succeed as a startup?
Aren't you going to fail just like Peoples' Express?
Blah, blah, blah....ZZZZZZZZZZ...getting tired of the same old arguments.
This has been hashed over so much, but you are still ready to jump right in when a windup artist tosses out some bait.
Search the boards here and at flightinfo.com and you'll see this ground has been covered over and over.
Add this one to the list of windup questions:
When are you going to pay for your planes?
Why are you flying for free?
When does Airbus stop paying the pilot salaries?
Do you have a contract?
Why do you think you can succeed as a startup?
Aren't you going to fail just like Peoples' Express?
Blah, blah, blah....ZZZZZZZZZZ...getting tired of the same old arguments.
LaBradford22
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A few other reasons (aside from just wages) why Jetblue has the lowest labor rates in the industry:
*Seniority. Jetblue has no employees beyond the 5th seniority pay step right now. By way of comparison, all six majors have a majority of employees at or near the max seniority pay step. This is a huge, HUGE advantage in this industry.
*Retiree medical costs. Jetblue makes no contribution to retiree medical costs (although employees can bank sick time and use it to buy months of medical coverage in retirement). By way of comparison, most majors provide at least partial (if not full) medical benefits to employees in retirement. Given projected medical inflation, this is another HUGE cost that Jetblue avoids. Of course, most Jetblue employees are nowhere near retirement, so this is not really a big issue for most of them right now.
*Fixed benefit pensions. Jetblue doesn't have them. Most major airlines do, for most labor groups. Jetblue employees seem to be happy without them, as long as they can make a lot of money on stock options (at least, pilots and mechanics at Jetblue can make money on stock options). However, when that well dries up, I wonder if Jetblue employees start demanding a pension (Jetblue does have a 401k with a pretty lean company match, if I recall correctly).
*Youth. Simply put, younger (less senior) employees are cheaper for reasons other than just the wage step. Younger employees are sick less. Less senior employees have less vacation (or, in Jetblue's world, "Paid Time Off") accrued. And it costs a heck of a lot less to provide health insurance benefits for a younger labor force.
In a nutshell, Jetblue employees are still in a euphoric, entrepreneurial state. Does it make for a great airline with great results? Absolutely. However, it will be interesting to see if they can keep it up once employees realize that they really are working for a living, and once management does something that appears to breach employee trust (which they will, sooner or later, trust me). Also, will the company be able to keep its employees from joining up with ALPA/AFA/AMFA/TWU, etc. I'm sure all of those Unions are absolutely chomping at the bit to add Jetblue employees to their member rolls.
*Seniority. Jetblue has no employees beyond the 5th seniority pay step right now. By way of comparison, all six majors have a majority of employees at or near the max seniority pay step. This is a huge, HUGE advantage in this industry.
*Retiree medical costs. Jetblue makes no contribution to retiree medical costs (although employees can bank sick time and use it to buy months of medical coverage in retirement). By way of comparison, most majors provide at least partial (if not full) medical benefits to employees in retirement. Given projected medical inflation, this is another HUGE cost that Jetblue avoids. Of course, most Jetblue employees are nowhere near retirement, so this is not really a big issue for most of them right now.
*Fixed benefit pensions. Jetblue doesn't have them. Most major airlines do, for most labor groups. Jetblue employees seem to be happy without them, as long as they can make a lot of money on stock options (at least, pilots and mechanics at Jetblue can make money on stock options). However, when that well dries up, I wonder if Jetblue employees start demanding a pension (Jetblue does have a 401k with a pretty lean company match, if I recall correctly).
*Youth. Simply put, younger (less senior) employees are cheaper for reasons other than just the wage step. Younger employees are sick less. Less senior employees have less vacation (or, in Jetblue's world, "Paid Time Off") accrued. And it costs a heck of a lot less to provide health insurance benefits for a younger labor force.
In a nutshell, Jetblue employees are still in a euphoric, entrepreneurial state. Does it make for a great airline with great results? Absolutely. However, it will be interesting to see if they can keep it up once employees realize that they really are working for a living, and once management does something that appears to breach employee trust (which they will, sooner or later, trust me). Also, will the company be able to keep its employees from joining up with ALPA/AFA/AMFA/TWU, etc. I'm sure all of those Unions are absolutely chomping at the bit to add Jetblue employees to their member rolls.
Just Plane Crazy
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It looks like there is some jealousy out there.
Just because they are happy with what they do and get does not constitute that they are second-class aviation employees. Just because you can’t get enough and want more and more and more don’t start a mutiny and try to fix something that is not broken.
Emily
Because of people like you there are some airlines that are in trouble. Maybe it is not a downward spiral but a needed correction. And here is my argument: Lets say you work on a B737NG or A320. Here are the pay scales (5 years):
Capt. F/O
Delta $243 $156
Northwest $201 $124
Alaska $189 $120
Continental $169 $100
Southwest $165 $107
American $148 $92
ATA $143 $93
US $142 $91
United $137 $88
America West $123 $80
JetBlue $121 $72
Frontier $114 $69
Midwest $101 $69
Sun $92 $61
There are airlines that pay less and you don’t pick on them. Since you are the one complaining it looks like you are somewhere in the top of this list.
Just looking at Delta, they have to find a way to reduce cost and looking at the pay scale for their pilots, I have to agree that they are afraid. Making double the salary of a JetBlue Pilot. Maybe it is time to get real.
Just because they are happy with what they do and get does not constitute that they are second-class aviation employees. Just because you can’t get enough and want more and more and more don’t start a mutiny and try to fix something that is not broken.
Emily
Because of people like you there are some airlines that are in trouble. Maybe it is not a downward spiral but a needed correction. And here is my argument: Lets say you work on a B737NG or A320. Here are the pay scales (5 years):
Capt. F/O
Delta $243 $156
Northwest $201 $124
Alaska $189 $120
Continental $169 $100
Southwest $165 $107
American $148 $92
ATA $143 $93
US $142 $91
United $137 $88
America West $123 $80
JetBlue $121 $72
Frontier $114 $69
Midwest $101 $69
Sun $92 $61
There are airlines that pay less and you don’t pick on them. Since you are the one complaining it looks like you are somewhere in the top of this list.
Just looking at Delta, they have to find a way to reduce cost and looking at the pay scale for their pilots, I have to agree that they are afraid. Making double the salary of a JetBlue Pilot. Maybe it is time to get real.
downline7
Member
JustPlaneCrazy ...Just Plane Crazy said:It looks like there is some jealousy out there.
Just because they are happy with what they do and get does not constitute that they are second-class aviation employees. Just because you can’t get enough and want more and more and more don’t start a mutiny and try to fix something that is not broken.
Emily
Because of people like you there are some airlines that are in trouble. Maybe it is not a downward spiral but a needed correction. And here is my argument: Lets say you work on a B737NG or A320. Here are the pay scales (5 years):
Capt. F/O
Delta $243 $156
Northwest $201 $124
Alaska $189 $120
Continental $169 $100
Southwest $165 $107
American $148 $92
ATA $143 $93
US $142 $91
United $137 $88
America West $123 $80
JetBlue $121 $72
Frontier $114 $69
Midwest $101 $69
Sun $92 $61
There are airlines that pay less and you don’t pick on them. Since you are the one complaining it looks like you are somewhere in the top of this list.
Just looking at Delta, they have to find a way to reduce cost and looking at the pay scale for their pilots, I have to agree that they are afraid. Making double the salary of a JetBlue Pilot. Maybe it is time to get real.
EXACTLY!
People have lost their minds.
Excellent post!Just Plane Crazy said:Because of people like you there are some airlines that are in trouble. Maybe it is not a downward spiral but a needed correction.
There are airlines that pay less and you don’t pick on them. Since you are the one complaining it looks like you are somewhere in the top of this list.
Just looking at Delta, they have to find a way to reduce cost and looking at the pay scale for their pilots, I have to agree that they are afraid. Making double the salary of a JetBlue Pilot. Maybe it is time to get real.
Notice that the top two on the list, DL and NW, have asked their pilots for concessions.
AS may yet have to do the same, and CO did it to their employees twice in CH 11. B)
WN pilots will probably be insulated from the industry-wide wage-cutting due to their superior productivity.
AA, UAL and US have already slashed pay.
Pilots need to get used to the new reality: Lots of pilots want jobs and some may not demand DL/NW wages to fly. Those at B6 don't need to - they stand a good chance of becoming rich as shareholders of B6. B)
By the way those are base numbers for JBLU. You need to add that for those over 70 hours a month, and there are some, they get 1.5X base. Oh, and in addition to the stock options, each and every employee got 17.5% of total pay in profit sharing checks last month. So add that to the per hour rate as well
