Employees must support the ALPA Pension

W:EXCH:INVOL

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Aug 20, 2002
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After reading your post (twice, actually-I didn't understand all the big words the first time) I've come to the conclusion you're absolutely right! Where do I sign-up to help out? Slide on by the ticket counter some time and fill in for me (anybody can do it, right?) and I'll go out on the campaign trail for the pilots.

INVOL
 

Uinvestor

Newbie
Dec 21, 2002
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www.usaviation.com
It is amazing how the employees aren’t supporting the pilots during this critical time in their lives. It seems that each union is only looking out for themselves. This is the time to support the ALPA 100% and voice your opinions to help save their pension.
To the CWA members who complain about having their pension frozen in the early 90''s- Where was your union during this time? From what I hear, the employees didn''t want any representation. You don''t see the IAM/AFA/ALPA having their pension frozen during this time.
These pilots spend approximately $100,000 for their schooling and they deserve every amount of money. Remember, without the pilots, there would be no airline. The other unions wouldn’t have a job. As with the mechanics, these are specially trained employees who are the breath of this airline.
It is easy for these board members to bash Chip Munn, but at least he isn’t hiding behind a username. If Dave Siegel terminates the pilot’s pension, then I would recommend that he terminate ALL pensions. The employees are in the same boat and should make the same sacrifices with their pensions.
Half of the union members didn’t even bother voting with the latest concessions. What does this say about the support that the employees have for their unions. Siegel and Glass have an excellent opportunity to lower the labor costs of the CWA members with the $13 hour pay. I would increase the number of SAR/Kiosks and convert many of the mainline stations to express that can’t support all jet service. I have always stated that this employee group should be paid the same as America West employees. Stop comparing your jobs to Southwest, they have made a profit for the last 20-30 years. Since the employees didn''t answer my questions on a previous thread, I assume that there aren''t many $13 hour jobs out in the workforce for the customer service agents.
Every employee should stop bashing the ALPA and support their cause. Anybody can unload bags or check-in flights, but flying or repairing an aircraft takes skill. These jobs aren’t easily replaceable.
Dave- Thanks for the non-stop service to the Masters. I was tired of connecting. I look forward to flying the RJ this April. As I have always stated, the Express employees do an outstanding job- They appreciate their low paying jobs unlike many mainline employees.
 

MrAeroMan

Veteran
Dec 29, 2002
895
2
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/20/2003 3:36:43 PM Uinvestor wrote:
[P]It is amazing how the employees aren’t supporting the pilots during this critical time in their lives. It seems that each union is only looking out for themselves. This is the time to support the ALPA 100% and voice your opinions to help save their pension.[BR][BR]To the CWA members who complain about having their pension frozen in the early 90's- Where was your union during this time? From what I hear, the employees didn't want any representation. You don't see the IAM/AFA/ALPA having their pension frozen during this time.[BR][BR][STRONG] It is true these people elected not to be represented. They were constantly told to "Trust us", "You don't need a union", "We'll take good care of you". All this time they were constantly taken advantage of until they got sick of giving with no one else giving. The ticket/gate/ramp agents had no say in the freezing and termination of their pension. They had to take it because ol' Seth said so. It was then they elected to vote in a union. [/STRONG][BR][BR]These pilots spend approximately $100,000 for their schooling and they deserve every amount of money. Remember, without the pilots, there would be no airline. The other unions wouldn’t have a job. As with the mechanics, these are specially trained employees who are the breath of this airline.[BR][BR] [STRONG]Again you're correct. Pilots do spend a great deal of money for their schooling and they sacrifice a great deal of their family time for their profession. For those sacrifices they are rewarded handsomely with a very high salary and retirement benefits. One thing you fail to recognize is these pilots do not do run the airline by themselves. When is the last time you saw a pilot taking tickets, ticketing a passenger, working an oversold flight, working irregular operations due to weather, loading bags in the dead heat of summer(no a/c in those cargo bins by the way), loading bags in the dead of winter in say a climate like SYR or BUF (no heat in those cargo bins either), deicing during a snow storm with wind chills regularly below zero not just one plane but several for several hours, changing an engine, fixing a seat back, changing a main tire, serving drinks in first class, picking up a bag full of vomit from a sick pax, soothing a nervous pax during heavy turbulence, working the frequent flyer desk, taking a pax reservation, working accounts payable or receivable? It's a team thing Mr Investor. No one group plays more important a role than another. If one part breaks down the whole place does the same.[/STRONG][BR][BR]It is easy for these board members to bash Chip Munn, but at least he isn’t hiding behind a username. If Dave Siegel terminates the pilot’s pension, then I would recommend that he terminate ALL pensions. The employees are in the same boat and should make the same sacrifices with their pensions. [BR][BR] [STRONG]Why should they all take a hit on their pensions? It is my understanding the majority of the problem relies with the underfunding of the pilots pension. While it's terrible they are being threatened with termination of the plan it is something that will have to be dealt with. I firmly am against them giving up their pension. They shouldn't be asked to give any more. Mr. Seigel said the pilots will receive the same money they would have just from two plans instead of one. If that turns out to be the case what is the problem? You stick up for Chip and that's fine but Chip has been on these threads shoving down the throats of the CWA, IAM, AFA and anyone else he could think of that they had to take the cuts. He incessantly said it's better to take a cut and save the jobs rather than have the company get liquidated. He also said they should quit if they didn't like the deal. Well, now the chickens have come home to roost with Mr. Munn and I'm sure that pill is a bitter one he's still trying to swallow. [/STRONG][BR][BR]Half of the union members didn’t even bother voting with the latest concessions. What does this say about the support that the employees have for their unions. Siegel and Glass have an excellent opportunity to lower the labor costs of the CWA members with the $13 hour pay. I would increase the number of SAR/Kiosks and convert many of the mainline stations to express that can’t support all jet service. I have always stated that this employee group should be paid the same as America West employees. Stop comparing your jobs to Southwest, they have made a profit for the last 20-30 years. Since the employees didn't answer my questions on a previous thread, I assume that there aren't many $13 hour jobs out in the workforce for the customer service agents.[BR][BR] [STRONG]My question to you is why are you bashing the customer service people here? The CWA members are a hugely important group to the success/failure of U. If you don't have well paid people representing you on the front lines your whole business plan is up in smoke. Customer service can and does make or break any business. Many people at U don't WANT to leave Mr. Investor. They have made a commitment to this company and don't want to leave. It would be a safe bet for me to say that you'd be the first one to b*%#h and complain if someone didn't handle you with the kid gloves you appear to require.[BR][/STRONG][BR]Every employee should stop bashing the ALPA and support their cause. Anybody can unload bags or check-in flights, but flying or repairing an aircraft takes skill. These jobs aren’t easily replaceable. [BR][BR] [STRONG]Anyone can unload bags or check-in flights huh? Nothing could be further from the truth. Do you have any idea what it takes to do such a job? Do you have any idea how many careers are derailed due to injuries from lifting bags and loading them in the cramped bins or how many agents are injured from handling baggage both inside and out? You have NO idea what it's like. Walk a mile in their shoes and then write about it. If anyone can do it then I challenge you to go to LGA, EWR or PHL and climb in the bin. Stack those bags so you can fit the hundreds of the bags on the plane within the balance limits. If it's so easy let's see YOU do it![BR][/STRONG][BR]Dave- Thanks for the non-stop service to the Masters. I was tired of connecting. I look forward to flying the RJ this April. As I have always stated, the Express employees do an outstanding job- They appreciate their low paying jobs unlike many mainline employees. [BR][BR] [STRONG]Why you are engaging in class warfare is beyond me. The whole company is made up of professionals and deserve to be treated like professionals. I guess the real issues you have with the lower paid agents is between you and the voices you hear or maybe you're just afraid your dues at the club are about to rise.[/STRONG][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]
 

IAM1776PHL

Advanced
Sep 1, 2002
175
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Dont you get it....U wants everyone to work for low pay and no pensions if they could.Sorry to say if you dont like how the Co is treating you ...Why dont you QUIT so I can work here for $13.00/hr ( you probally pay someone more an hour to cut your lawn) with no pention to speak of and benefits I'm afraid to use.QUIT QUIT QUIT thats all we heard now its yuor time to think about it you see its eaiser said than done!
Did I hear the piolts outrage in 91 when F/S pension was frozen... no do you expect my sympathy.. No..so just QUIT
 

diogenes

Veteran
Aug 22, 2002
2,515
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[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/20/2003 3:36:43 PM Uinvestor wrote:


I have always stated that this employee group should be paid the same as America West employees. Stop comparing your jobs to Southwest, they have made a profit for the last 20-30 years. Since the employees didn't answer my questions on a previous thread, I assume that there aren't many $13 hour jobs out in the workforce for the customer service agents.
------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Jack,

I've been waiting for you to pop out of the woodwork. On a thread a few weeks ago, I directly asked you how WN was able to pay their ramp rats $25 an hour, and be profitable. Perhaps you overlooked my query.

I see part of your answer here - they've been profitable for 20 to 30 years.

That's true, but short on analysis. WN has paid their folks prevailing wages during that time - they have NOT been grossly underpaid for two decades, and all of a sudden, caught up. They are just as unionized, as a percentage as UA, US or AA, and more heavily unionized than DL. So how does it work they've been profitable? Perhaps a superior business plan and management team?

Here's another thought. Even after recent concessions, where the average U wage will be less than WN's, U's CASM's will still exceed WN's. How does that happen?

Don't compare U to WN? OK, help me with this. After parity plus one in 1999 for all labor groups (parity plus one guaranteed a wage structure that lagged the average wage of the comparables by one year), U STILL had a higher CASM than DL,NW,AA or UA. Now if your wage structure is the average of your competitions', and your CASM's are higher, isn't it self evident your cost problems are not wages?

Any help would be appreciated.
 

usfliboi

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,070
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Why do you guys continue to respond to this guy ? You fall right into his trap. Youre doing exactly what he wants you to do !
 

DaWoo

Member
Dec 26, 2002
24
0
Hey Jack[BR]You made such a big deal that Chip is using his real name, don't you think you could have been a little braver and used yours?[BR][BR]Chip was given some creditability here in the beginning for writing articles for the boards. Like many pilots, it all went to his head. Now he must hear the rumble from those of us whom he has preached to.[BR][BR]It is time for Dave to take action on their pension....let them join the rest of us.[BR][BR][BR]
 

PITbull

Veteran
Dec 29, 2002
7,784
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www.usaviation.com
[/blockquote]
Uinvestor,
And I state this with earnesty:
I don't know if you work for our co. or not...but you are sadly over opinionated when you make statements (paraphrased) "As ALPA pension goes...so should the rest".
We are NOT ALL in the same boat, and your recommendation is proposterous.And I do not believe that if the rest of us give up our pensions will show anything more than stupidity; not ALPA support.No one wants to see anyones pension's terminated, let's make that clear. Regardless of what a few may say in these threads, those folks are only asking for ALPA (some) to be empathetic to what many groups have gone through in the past. I gather you didn't get that.

How could you imply this when this Manaagement (with the plan) stated that the IAM and AFA pensions are not the problem with exhorbanant contributions, and that their pension are not in jeapordy. In my mind, I get the impression that your saying if my neighbor's house has burnt down, I should burn my house down so I can feel his pain...or have I perceived this incorrectly?

"Just living out loud"
 

Seatacus

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
2,953
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Puget Sound
www.usaviation.com
You guys.... when are you gonna learn that this guy loves jerkin your chain. He gets off on it. Don't respond to him and maybe he will go to another message board. Everything he says is of little substance and much hurtful rhetoric. This guy is a "baiter' and he is a "master" at it, so you know what that makes him.
 
Dec 21, 2002
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Addressing some of the points of this vomitous spew:
1- The pilots can look after themselves just fine, I didn't expect them to look after me when my job and livelihood was threatened. We had to fight(and lose) some of our own battles, in all fairness they can do the same.We can support from afar, but that's it.

2- Chip Munn doesn't have to use a pseudoname, he can say anything he likes as he is basically an approved "company spokesman" with no retribution or penalty for any comments he makes. Others do not have that luxury.
3-Pilots can be all the trained they want, but flying empty and uncargoed aircraft doesn't keep you in business.Every facet of the company is important and a cog in the wheel and as someone else pointed out, segregating one over the other in a class war is ludicrous.This sentiment of yours alone invalidates your opinions to the umpteenth degree.
4- The CWA no show voter turnout certainly made a statement about how the union betrayed the employees after the initial contract in 1999. That contract was fair and good, I am reaping a couple or 3 of the rewards as we speak, but subsequent negotiations and acceptances have been a "sellout", and put the CWA group into a floating stall mode, i.e.1/2 the people do not care anymore, everyone realizes(if you don't your a fool) it is just a matter of time before every CS agent,even seniors, makes 13 or below an hour based on contract threats and endless recycle of new hires at low wages.The company has won in the short term with this regard, ..in the long term, IMO, will not prosper.
5- I processed $564,000 worth of revenue in ticket sales and reissues over the last 12 months(according to docs distributed to agents early JAN 03) which is about 14 times my salary, so don't tell me I wasn't cranking in the dough and paying my just dues.Many of those transactions were E-Z, many were difficult and took training, expertise ,and a savoir faire you cannot always get at America West wages or with new hire skills>>(until they're developed).
 

MrAeroMan

Veteran
Dec 29, 2002
895
2
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 1/20/2003 9:43:48 PM Severed-N-Happy wrote:
[P]ineffable, incessant , inimical, oracular, polemical, inculcate,-->>>>>>>>Ambulance chaser.[/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P][/P]You forgot intercessor!! [BR][BR]Pardon me....can you spare some Grey Poupon??
 

speedbird86

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
218
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I don't think it's a matter of supporting ALPA or not.

There is simply no damn money to pay the pensions. What's so hard to understand about that?

Either the pilots cough it up. The company strectches it out till half of them are dead and gone, or it's passed on to everybody......the taxpayers. I for one am not into having to pay my own retirement and everybody elses. I don't think uncle W will either.

thank you.
 

MrAeroMan

Veteran
Dec 29, 2002
895
2
On 1/20/2003 8:53:55 PM Uinvestor wrote:


My intention is to be an intercessor between the employee groups
----------------[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE]

[STRONG]Sorry Jack but I couldn't stomach to quote the whole diatribe you gave here. The only thing worth quoting is above and in it you state how you want to be an "intercessor between the employee groups". If that wasn't so ridiculous it'd be funny when the whole time all you do is cut down anyone who isn't a pilot or mechanic. If you want to be anything how about being informed? That sure would go a long way.
Tell Stevo and Rakeesh I said hey....hope the sauna isn't too hot![/STRONG]
[/P][/BLOCKQUOTE][/BLOCKQUOTE]
 

Seatacus

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
2,953
170
Puget Sound
www.usaviation.com
Let me interpret Uinvestors last posting. It starts out like this.

Blah blah blah blah... pilots are great. Blah blah blah blah... I'm a geat guy. Blah blah blah blah... I'm rubber your glue. Blah blah blah blah... I can use big words. Blah blah blah blah... CWA people are bad. See, he's not so hard to understand after all.
 

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