Fares!

phillyguy

Advanced
Aug 20, 2002
140
0
Why doesn''t U offer decent mid-week fares from PHL to DFW or IAH. $1200-$1700 ? Even on the connection buying a month in advance.[BR][BR][BR]Week by week you keep chasing us away![BR][BR]Phillyguy[BR]US1[BR][BR][BR][BR]
 

tadjr

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
3,511
100
TPA
www.airlineforums.com
You're preaching to the choir here Phillyguy. Unfortunately, I think they'd rather sell 2 or 3 of these fares a week instead of selling more at a slightly discounted rate and maybe getting some more people to actually pay the higher (non V/W fare) fare. I guess I just dont see the big pix.
 

usfliboi

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,070
270
When will you guys understand????????? This is ccy or usairways!!!!!!!! This is an industry wide problem! We could try AND HAVE and it doesnt!!Untill every one gets together (which is agaisnt the law btw) and makes a joint move, it wont happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Art at ISP

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,457
418
Dix Hills NY
www.ffocus.org
Stewart,

I respectfully beg to differ. As one of your most loyal and supportive customers, I have to tell you that you could take the bull by the horns as others have done (AA DL and UA in selective markets) and lower the unrestricted prices overnight. I can wholeheartedly support the dropping of the absolute lowest fares--I can't see $89 or $99 coast to coast-let WN have that market-you have services and offer a value add.

The cross country fares range from $99 let's say to $1250 one way, and there are maybe 20 different fares! Cut them down to 5 or 6, and make the least expensive one $199 but make the most expensive one $599 one way. You don't need other airlines to go along--but when you're selling B or Y inventory at $599 when they are $1250 you will pick up business. You will also note that most likely the AVERAGE rsm will pick up for said flight, as the AVERAGE fare will be higher--just more people will be happier!!!

I just booked a cross country trip for next week. I actually saved the company money by booking A class instead of Y!!!!! It was still over $2K but that was the lowest fare available. It's crazy. I have flown the same itinerary for $210 round trip in first class!!! Yet if I want to terminate in PHL from ISP, r/t on Dash 8's are over $700!

Therefore, respectfully, Stewart, it IS your problem, and I do hold you at CCY responsible for not being bold enough to make such changes. Didn't HP do it?

Stop taking from your employees and make some sensible changes!!!!!

Thanks and best of luck to you all...I just booked about 8 more segments on the good old U!!!!!
 

USFlyer

Veteran
Aug 19, 2002
2,084
292
Fares really depend on the markets. I have been traveling DCA-SEA (thru PIT or PHL) almost every week for the past nine months, and I can say fares have come down A LOT! I use to pay close to $1700 for a BA3US fare. A recent ticket I bought on JAN11 for travel on JAN13-JAN17 was $969.15 under a BRZN fare basis. The last ticket I bought was for $565.55 under a BRA7ZN fare. Both were upgradeable at time of booking (the latter was prior to the 7-day window). To me, $969.15 for a transcon ticket (approx. $433 plus tax each way) bought two days before departure is completely reasonable.
 

KCFlyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
10,631
1,322
www.usaviation.com
It's not about the advance purchase fares. It's about the "unrestricted" (which the other guys still seem to restrict) fares. Souothwest recently lowered their maximum one way fare to $299, yet their averge fare paid actually increased. Could it be because folks found those fares (even the top dollar fares) pretty inviting? I know the airline has to manage costs, but it could be easier if the company did something to manage revenues at the same time.
 

Art at ISP

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,457
418
Dix Hills NY
www.ffocus.org
KC Flyer I completely agree--it's the unrestricted fares that need fixing. If the company sets a cap, or lowers them to a tolerable level, they will find like Southwest did that their AVERAGE fare will come up. This would go a long way to increase revenue.

All it takes in my humble opinion is a gutsy move by the pricing department at CCY. You don't need the other majors--you can beat them with this.

Let's see--increased average fare and increased market share---sounds like a good plan---which means they will probably never try it.

Oh well.....
 

usfliboi

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,070
270
Art, I think you are mis informed. From a customers perspective you may indeed percieve certain things that truly just arent there. Usairways as well as others have attempted NUMEROUS times to change the way fares are structured. Unless all goes along with those changes they fail! All you have to do is read the headlines 3 days after a fare sale comes along ! If others dont follow it doesnt go forward. Why does Hp and Wn do this and do it well? SIMPLE! In most markets they have very little battle with others. HAVE you ever looked at there fare structure in depth? Ever wonder why there are only a percentage of those low low fares??? If youre gonna use HP or WN as examples, why not ask why do they not have 2 fares one walk up the other advanced??? WHy is it that the advance "cheap fares"are soooo limited? Art its about PROFIT ! Do we need to change the fare structure in some ways and tweak it? ABSOULUTLY! Changes have to be made at some point in many areas. its not simple, if it were my friend you would have your own airline. We certainly appreciate your buisness and if you look youll find some attractive fares both on US as well as others. Things take time to change but regardless, unlike your parents and mine, they were not able to fly to the west coast for under one thousand.
 

sfb

Veteran
Aug 21, 2002
771
1
www.usaviation.com
usfliboi-

Actually, HP and WN face competition on the broad majority of the routes they serve -- often with each other. Consider that both have large operations at PHX and LAS and serve many of the same destinations from both. And HP competes with other network carriers on most routes from PHX and LAS which are unserved by WN. Southwest has also managed to dominate some markets by using its fare structure and low costs. They carry the lion's share of air traffic between Dallas and Houston, even though they compete with CO, AA, and DL (as well as Interstate 45). They have driven other carriers out of markets; for example, many of United's Shuttle routes and most of US Airways/Metrojet's routes from BWI. But it's hard to argue that MHT/PVD-BWI flights don't compete with BOS-BWI, BOS-DCA, and PVD/MHT-DCA, or that their extensive MDW operation doesn't compete at all with the AA and UA hubs at ORD.

The WN business model isn't to steal traffic directly from other airlines and attack their hubs; rather, it is to generate new traffic in underserved, high-fare markets. Network carriers are affected indirectly in that they lose pricing power in those markets; for example, US's $185 average fare between BWI and PVD in 1996 fell to around $63 in 2001 (on Metrojet). But US's traffic on that route also quadrupled, even with direct competition from Southwest. More people flew because there was a larger number of reasonably-priced seats.

Of course WN and HP and B6 and FL have restrictions on their lowest-priced fares -- practically every airline does! In general, however, their discounted fares are less restricted and carry fewer gotchas than a discounted fare on US or any other large network carrier. Moreover, the disparity between their lowest fare and their highest fare tends to be far less than what you'd find on most of the network carriers. Take JAX-RDU, for example. WN will charge between $120 and $214 (unrestricted) round-trip before taxes in 5 different fare classes. US matches those and yet has at least 16 different fares (in over 20 fare classes) from $120 to a whopping $1060 for unrestricted economy. They likely sell a smaller percentage of deeply discounted fares, though, simply because they don't NEED to sell more in order to fill the plane. Passengers are willing to pay a more reasonable unrestricted coach fare!
 

Art at ISP

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
2,457
418
Dix Hills NY
www.ffocus.org
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/24/2003 4:56:28 PM usfliboi wrote:

Art, I think you are mis informed. From a customers perspective you may indeed percieve certain things that truly just arent there. Usairways as well as others have attempted NUMEROUS times to change the way fares are structured. Unless all goes along with those changes they fail! All you have to do is read the headlines 3 days after a fare sale comes along ! If others dont follow it doesnt go forward. Why does Hp and Wn do this and do it well? SIMPLE! In most markets they have very little battle with others. HAVE you ever looked at there fare structure in depth? Ever wonder why there are only a percentage of those low low fares??? If youre gonna use HP or WN as examples, why not ask why do they not have 2 fares one walk up the other advanced??? WHy is it that the advance "cheap fares"are soooo limited? Art its about PROFIT ! Do we need to change the fare structure in some ways and tweak it? ABSOULUTLY! Changes have to be made at some point in many areas. its not simple, if it were my friend you would have your own airline. We certainly appreciate your buisness and if you look youll find some attractive fares both on US as well as others. Things take time to change but regardless, unlike your parents and mine, they were not able to fly to the west coast for under one thousand.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Usfliboi,

I don't for a second pretend to be an expert. The only time to my recollection that fare moves have failed are on increases. I am not talking about the low end of the spectrum but the high end. There is no justification whatsoever to pay $2,000 for a roundtrip to the west coast other than to throw money at the airline. If you were to be bold and lower Y and B fares to a realistic level, you wouldn't WANT the competition to match because you would own the market. And the increased volume at those levels would result in higher averages therefore MORE profit.

Don't get me wrong--I can't argue with all that you say, but no airline has ever cancelled a SALE because others didn't go along.

I believe that DL and AA attempted to lower unrestricted fares in certain markets and were successful. UA will fail because the fares are restricted.

I continue to remain faithful to U and will do so until the final gavel falls (I certainly hope it doesn't!)
 

KCFlyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
10,631
1,322
www.usaviation.com
[blockquote]
----------------
On 1/24/2003 4:56:28 PM usfliboi wrote:

Art, I think you are mis informed. From a customers perspective you may indeed percieve certain things that truly just arent there. Usairways as well as others have attempted NUMEROUS times to change the way fares are structured. Unless all goes along with those changes they fail! All you have to do is read the headlines 3 days after a fare sale comes along ! If others dont follow it doesnt go forward.

That's for 21 day, travel-on-a-Tuesday-and-give-up-your-firstborn-child-should-you-make-a-change fares. If the others don't want to "match" a reduction in your "unrestricted" fares, so what...all that means is that when a customer looks at $1,200 versus $600 for a flight, you'll most likely get the business, except for the lucky few who work for companies willing to pay a premium so that their employees can accrue mileage on the carrier of their choice.


Why does Hp and Wn do this and do it well? SIMPLE! In most markets they have very little battle with others. HAVE you ever looked at there fare structure in depth? Ever wonder why there are only a percentage of those low low fares??? If youre gonna use HP or WN as examples, why not ask why do they not have 2 fares one walk up the other advanced??? WHy is it that the advance "cheap fares"are soooo limited? Art its about PROFIT !

WN and HP both lowered their unrestricted fares. Southwests average fare went up. Southwest competes with AA and UAL from MCI to Chicago, THey compete with AA on MCI-STL, they compete with Delta on MCI-Florida. I remember the days before SWA served MCI-STL, The walk up fare on TWA was $500. Today it's less than a hundred bucks. They do have some fares that cannot be used in combination with others. But the bottom line is that the difference between a discount advance purchase fare and the full unrestricted fare isn't all that much. I sent my wife out to SAN to watch the Holiday bowl. Seats out of KC were hard to find, since a lot of K-State fans live here. So I paid full "unrestricted, fully refundable" on the way out, and combined it with an advance fare on the way back. Total fare was under $500 - and that included a leg on the full fare. She would have stayed home if the difference between advance and full fare was $1,200, as it is in many cases. Sure WN limits seats, it's "revenue management", and contrary to popular belief, WN actually does have a revenue management department. The fact that they were able to lower unrestricted fares, yet at the same time increase their average fare paid speaks volumes about the job they are doing.

Do we need to change the fare structure in some ways and tweak it? ABSOULUTLY! Changes have to be made at some point in many areas. its not simple, if it were my friend you would have your own airline. We certainly appreciate your buisness and if you look youll find some attractive fares both on US as well as others. Things take time to change but regardless, unlike your parents and mine, they were not able to fly to the west coast for under one thousand.

What is so difficult about lowering the unrestricted fares and limiting the number of fare buckets? As I said, if the other airlines don't match you, just thank them and welcome the business that your fare structure brings in. Why do airlines insist on appearing as a "low fare leader" by beating the "low fare leaders" on advance purchase tickets, only to fly empty seats that they were hoping to fill with passengers who paid thru the nose for their tickets? A simplified fare structure (and the elimination of the nickle and dime penalties) could do wonders for your bottom line. But managment won't even consider that step until "costs are under control". Do they not realize that costs and revenues work hand in hand? Losing business because your revenue mangement model is stuck in the 90's only means you've got to cut costs even deeper. Tweaking the revenue model together with addressing the cost side might just start stemming the losses.
Apparently most airline managment is incapable of focusing on more than one issue at a time.
----------------
[/blockquote]
 

KCFlyer

Veteran
Aug 20, 2002
10,631
1,322
www.usaviation.com
AtlanticBeach - This is something I don't understand - the area with the biggest cuts is also the first point of contact for the customer - reservations. If I live in a non-hub city (which I do), how long does management think I am willing to sit on hold until I decide to take my business elsewhere? I flew my wife and her mom to RSW on CO in large part because my call was answered. US isn't alone in this...I sat for a good while on Delta and AA as well (without ever talking to a "live" person), until trying CO. They answered the phone, and more importantly, they got the business. The internet's great, but there are still a lot of folks who can't or won't use it. Besides, U's website is not the most "user friendly" in the world...should you decide to "compare" or change a flight time, you pretty much have to reenter www.usairways.com and start all over again. By getting put on hold because of staff cutbacks does not provide the customer with a very good first impression of USAirways. JMHO.
 

AtlanticBeach

Senior
Aug 20, 2002
341
2
Amen, KCFlyer.

Yield Management at US has remained inconsistent in their performance. In addition to underestimating the reduction in revenue from the BK announcement, weak economy, public announcements by Baldanza, Bronner and others and fewer non-stop seats, they still have not figured out fare simplification.

Imagine this. Reservation agents who could work more efficiently because they had to make fewer explanations to passengers. Less calls on hold. Fewer hang-ups. And many less last minute customers fleeing to WN and HP.

There might even be some profitability around the corner. What a concept!
 

Latest posts