Fleet Service apathy

ograc

Veteran
Jan 30, 2012
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I invite input from all on the following:
On a scale from one to ten, one being the lowest and ten being the highest, where would you rate the members' apathy level regarding issues surrounding the ongoing contract negotiations for the Fleet Service at US Airways in your station? It's time to start identifying the obstacles we need to overcome.
orgac
 

bpsolo

Member
Aug 11, 2004
73
17
I invite input from all on the following:
On a scale from one to ten, one being the lowest and ten being the highest, where would you rate the members' apathy level regarding issues surrounding the ongoing contract negotiations for the Fleet Service at US Airways in your station? It's time to start identifying the obstacles we need to overcome.
orgac
Haven't heard from anyone who even knows about any of the talking points of the contract there negotiating?
 

robbedagain

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Oct 13, 2003
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I doubt that talks have even started period. given we are the third class citizens of the titanic with our union when it comes to negogiations but one thing i would like to see is enhanced better scope/language merger protections better sick wages benefits vacations etc
 

Tim Nelson

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Jan 5, 2003
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I doubt that talks have even started period. given we are the third class citizens of the titanic with our union when it comes to negogiations but one thing i would like to see is enhanced better scope/language merger protections better sick wages benefits vacations etc
Robbed again,

I couldn't have said it any better. The negotiations update was simply "We talked about overtime, etc". Essentially, no update at all and completely non transparent. What is even more disturbing is the lack of urgency. Delaney doesn't care. He sets up negotiations every 6 weeks. When United opened up their negotiations they often negotiated for 3 weeks a month. I imagine that he is playing politics and that he wanted to make sure he flew around on your dime for the month of March campaigning and telling everyone that he loves them so much. One thing I'm sure he won't be saying this time though is what he told CLT last time, i.e., "If I don't show up here but for elections then vote for someone else.". Well, it's election time so he's coming around the corner once again!

Onward Occupyiam141!

Tim
 
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ograc

ograc

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Robbed again,

I couldn't have said it any better. The negotiations update was simply "We talked about overtime, etc". Essentially, no update at all and completely non transparent. What is even more disturbing is the lack of urgency. Delaney doesn't care. He sets up negotiations every 6 weeks. When United opened up their negotiations they often negotiated for 3 weeks a month. I imagine that he is playing politics and that he wanted to make sure he flew around on your dime for the month of March campaigning and telling everyone that he loves them so much. One thing I'm sure he won't be saying this time though is what he told CLT last time, i.e., "If I don't show up here but for elections then vote for someone else.". Well, it's election time so he's coming around the corner once again!

Onward Occupyiam141!

Tim

definate lack of urgency for US Airways Fleet as always. The main focus I'm sure is first the PCE election at UA and then onto the Officer election in June. At this rate I may be retired before we get another agreement. Tim, I know you had your reasons for leaving your position, but based on the results of the Air Tran organizing campaign I wish you were still on board for the PCE organizing drive at UA.
Ograc
 

Tim Nelson

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definate lack of urgency for US Airways Fleet as always. The main focus I'm sure is first the PCE election at UA and then onto the Officer election in June. At this rate I may be retired before we get another agreement. Tim, I know you had your reasons for leaving your position, but based on the results of the Air Tran organizing campaign I wish you were still on board for the PCE organizing drive at UA.
Ograc
Wouldn't have worked out ograc. As I was organizing victories for our troops, I was coming home only to have Delaney cut deals against the people we organized and screw them over, and I didn't sign on to that. Delaney has absolutely destroyed each property and now management has NO respect at all for fleet. The AGC's flipped like pancakes on the members just like those who were in their position prior.

The union has alot of leverage at this time so if we clean up the deadwood we ought to be in great shape by signing each contract, your contract before any merger. To be clear, I am not going to enter transition talks at US AIRWAYS and waive off your wages and benefits like Delaney did over at United. I have no interest in helping management make a merger seamless unless and until all of our members are taken care of first. Once a union makes bed with management by walking into transitions......well, you already know what happened in 2008.

Onward Occupy 141

Tim
 
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ograc

ograc

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Jan 30, 2012
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Wouldn't have worked out ograc. As I was organizing victories for our troops, I was coming home only to have Delaney cut deals against the people we organized and screw them over, and I didn't sign on to that. Delaney has absolutely destroyed each property and now management has NO respect at all for fleet. The AGC's flipped like pancakes on the members just like those who were in their position prior.

The union has alot of leverage at this time so if we clean up the deadwood we ought to be in great shape by signing each contract, your contract before any merger. To be clear, I am not going to enter transition talks at US AIRWAYS and waive off your wages and benefits like Delaney did over at United. I have no interest in helping management make a merger seamless unless and until all of our members are taken care of first. Once a union makes bed with management by walking into transitions......well, you already know what happened in 2008.

Onward Occupy 141

Tim

Understood. I have concerns wheather the IAM is going to win representation rights in that election. If we lose there we lose a lot of leverage and potential dues paying members. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I read you right, it seems you are expecting some type of merger or acquisition with AA in the future. Is the Occupy 141 website up and running?
ograc
 

ChockJockey

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Dec 18, 2008
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Until the union becomes more to the average ramper than an additional deduction from his/her pay stub there's no reason for him or her to be anything but apathetic. I had the opportunity to hear our grievance chair talking to some new hires a while back, instead of making a case for the union and the services it provides, his sell was basically "yeah well uh if you don't fill out the paperwork we have to ask the company to terminate you..."

There's quite a lot that the union provides either through itself or its affiliations, and most FSA's are unaware of these. Beyond what's offered on-site, there's also opportunities for insurance, education, scholarships, discounts, etc. and these should be kept in mind when addressing the membership. What can the IAM do for you, in your life, in your situation? There's just about something for everybody, but everybody's not informed.

Here's what I'd like to see, at least at my station (PHX). The grievance chair or committee members should set the goal of meeting and speaking with every member individually, ramp and cargo, for the purpose of doing the following:

1. Introducing themselves personally and handing out contact information.
2. Asking each member how they feel about the union and why.
3. Informing members about the benefits and opportunities that come with membership. "Oh, you are considering X? Did you know that the IAM offers Y and Z?"
4. Explaining what the IAM's goals and plans are for the station and work group, what's being done towards these goals, and how individual members can get involved.

What I'm essentially discussing is the difference between passive union leadership and active union leadership; which kind is the membership paying for, and which kind is it actually getting? Instead of "well if you have an issue come find one of us" it'd be nice to have our leadership or stewards making rounds, talking to crews and in work areas, soliciting concerns about safety, operations, management and other things; this might happen in other stations, but it doesn't in mine.
 
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Jester

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Sep 12, 2007
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Until the union becomes more to the average ramper than an additional deduction from his/her pay stub there's no reason for him or her to be anything but apathetic. I had the opportunity to hear our grievance chair talking to some new hires a while back, instead of making a case for the union and the services it provides, his sell was basically "yeah well uh if you don't fill out the paperwork we have to ask the company to terminate you..."

CJ,

I think we were in that class together or he was reading the same tattered notes recited many times prior... "sign this or else" and barely a mention of any of the benefits of having an union.

Many years ago when I was in college, I recall the professor instructing a labor related course to a bunch of privileged kids as to the benefits of an union to the average guy besides the obvious pay increases. One of the strongest reasons was that it permitted every member to have access to professional legal and financial advisement as it relates to their employment for the relatively modest costs of some monthly dues which would be prohibitively expensive otherwise.

Perhaps in hindsight, to make such claims might have exposed someone in commission of false advertisement given the snail's pace of grievances being resolved or even addressed. Maybe it was best not to promise too much, thus the new hires won't be as disappointed later. However, my education from that course long ago reminds me of what we SHOULD be, instead of what we have become... a bloated, indifferent, effete network of good ole boy leadership dispensing bromides to the Membership under the worn banner of "This Time It Will be Different-- We Promise".

It is difficult for the Membership to get passionate the union about when the 3-Card Monty of different AGC, Chairman, MEC, etc. produce the same ineffective results. A replacement leadership truly needs a completely different mindset from experienced and educated people who are not only knowledgable, but know enough when to hire outside experts to provide positive results.

Usually, if pressed, the best we are offered is some 'hope' an arbitator will see things in our favor upon a ruling. As I read through the weekend edition of the WSJ, I noticed a quote from an interview with Alaska Airlines' CEO, Bill Ayer, "Hope is not a strategy," and yet, that is all our union leadership is offering and all we, as the Membership, are expecting from our union.

So Scrutinizes Jester.
 
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ograc

ograc

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Jan 30, 2012
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CJ,

I think we were in that class together or he was reading the same tattered notes recited many times prior... "sign this or else" and barely a mention of any of the benefits of having an union.

Many years ago when I was in college, I recall the professor instructing a labor related course to a bunch of privileged kids as to the benefits of an union to the average guy besides the obvious pay increases. One of the strongest reasons was that it permitted every member to have access to professional legal and financial advisement as it relates to their employment for the relatively modest costs of some monthly dues which would be prohibitively expensive otherwise.

Perhaps in hindsight, to make such claims might have exposed someone in commission of false advertisement given the snail's pace of grievances being resolved or even addressed. Maybe it was best not to promise too much, thus the new hires won't be as disappointed later. However, my education from that course long ago reminds me of what we SHOULD be, instead of what we have become... a bloated, indifferent, effete network of good ole boy leadership dispensing bromides to the Membership under the worn banner of "This Time It Will be Different-- We Promise".

It is difficult for the Membership to get passionate the union about when the 3-Card Monty of different AGC, Chairman, MEC, etc. produce the same ineffective results. A replacement leadership truly needs a completely different mindset from experienced and educated people who are not only knowledgable, but know enough when to hire outside experts to provide positive results.

Usually, if pressed, the best we are offered is some 'hope' an arbitator will see things in our favor upon a ruling. As I read through the weekend edition of the WSJ, I noticed a quote from an interview with Alaska Airlines' CEO, Bill Ayer, "Hope is not a strategy," and yet, that is all our union leadership is offering and all we, as the Membership, are expecting from our union.

So Scrutinizes Jester.

Jester,
Apathy, or the lack of passion, for the union has been central to our inherent lack of solidarity. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Until we learn from history we are destined to repeat it. We need to find a resolution that moves all of us forward. A concept, that has not been achieved, for the past 15 years. Until all of us can "get on the same page" as to what is best for the membership we, as a group, will ultimately fail.
 

Tim Nelson

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Jan 5, 2003
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Jester,
Apathy, or the lack of passion, for the union has been central to our inherent lack of solidarity. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Until we learn from history we are destined to repeat it. We need to find a resolution that moves all of us forward. A concept, that has not been achieved, for the past 15 years. Until all of us can "get on the same page" as to what is best for the membership we, as a group, will ultimately fail.
I couldn't have said it any better. But it's not a horizontal problem with the members, it's a vertical problem with the leadership. Horizontal apathy is just a symptom of the vertical problem.

The main reason for apathy and disinterest in the union is that the Collective bargaining agent has treated US AIRWAYS fleet as second best and there is NO RELATIONSHIP that cultivates any interest. That is intended by the Collective bargaining agent to keep everyone in the dark and divided and scattered. If the masses are muzzled, blindfolded, not given any knowledge and are fenced in, then the present apathy is the exact sorta thing we would expect. The result of that problem is that in about 4 or 5 more years the masses will get a 'take it or leave it' contract, and the contract will be sold with fear and 'gloom and doom'. That's how it goes.

Our members, i.e., the ones that have stayed involved, have to carefully review how the New Direction has screwed over HAL, and UAL, and just screwed over BUF by supporting the continual lockout up there.
Most significantly, is for our members to become aware of how the New Direction screwed over UA ramp in the UA/CO merger. To be sure, all of YOUR AGC"s have supported each action and do NOT have the backs of their members on these decisions that affect all of you.

Delaney insisted that he would finish a UA ramp contract first, like the IBT did for the UAL MX, before he agreed with management to enter transition talks. Less than 30 days after the IAM/IBT election, he abolished those talks, lied to the members, and went into transitions where management proceeded to offer even less. The same approach at US AIRWAYS, presuming a AMR merger, would mean no pay raises for several years [after the little 2% raise in July]. All the while, dues goes up and up again as the airlines make millions and billions of dollars but no raise for IAM members!

Management is management, but it isn't going to just hand over a fair contract. A fair contract has to be taken by the members and that is NOT going to happen with how the union does business with its members. The only possible solution is the Occupy 141 platform which incorporates how other unions do business and is also incorporates socialization techniques from the academic side that have been incredibly successful for labor. Management has all of you in lower middle class right now and the Collective bargaining agent has no problem keeping the status quo as long as it can keep upping the dues and not taking care of you and your families.

It's a lot more than having 'big balls'. Until then, there will be nothing to stop management from just doing what it wants to do and saying "Can't do this" "Wont do that". NOTHING. Bottom line. What the hell juice is there at a wooden table if the leaders of this union haven't engaged the masses and did the sorta things that are spelled out in the Occupy 141 platform? It's a mouse's wheel where incompetence goes around and around. And there are a few Local Chairman and good ole boys who don't seem to grasp that fairly simple concept. The fate of a leading contract will be in the balance of

www.occupyiam141.com
 
OP
ograc

ograc

Veteran
Jan 30, 2012
1,868
1,624
I couldn't have said it any better. But it's not a horizontal problem with the members, it's a vertical problem with the leadership. Horizontal apathy is just a symptom of the vertical problem.

The main reason for apathy and disinterest in the union is that the Collective bargaining agent has treated US AIRWAYS fleet as second best and there is NO RELATIONSHIP that cultivates any interest. That is intended by the Collective bargaining agent to keep everyone in the dark and divided and scattered. If the masses are muzzled, blindfolded, not given any knowledge and are fenced in, then the present apathy is the exact sorta thing we would expect. The result of that problem is that in about 4 or 5 more years the masses will get a 'take it or leave it' contract, and the contract will be sold with fear and 'gloom and doom'. That's how it goes.

Our members, i.e., the ones that have stayed involved, have to carefully review how the New Direction has screwed over HAL, and UAL, and just screwed over BUF by supporting the continual lockout up there.
Most significantly, is for our members to become aware of how the New Direction screwed over UA ramp in the UA/CO merger. To be sure, all of YOUR AGC"s have supported each action and do NOT have the backs of their members on these decisions that affect all of you.

Delaney insisted that he would finish a UA ramp contract first, like the IBT did for the UAL MX, before he agreed with management to enter transition talks. Less than 30 days after the IAM/IBT election, he abolished those talks, lied to the members, and went into transitions where management proceeded to offer even less. The same approach at US AIRWAYS, presuming a AMR merger, would mean no pay raises for several years [after the little 2% raise in July]. All the while, dues goes up and up again as the airlines make millions and billions of dollars but no raise for IAM members!

Management is management, but it isn't going to just hand over a fair contract. A fair contract has to be taken by the members and that is NOT going to happen with how the union does business with its members. The only possible solution is the Occupy 141 platform which incorporates how other unions do business and is also incorporates socialization techniques from the academic side that have been incredibly successful for labor. Management has all of you in lower middle class right now and the Collective bargaining agent has no problem keeping the status quo as long as it can keep upping the dues and not taking care of you and your families.

It's a lot more than having 'big balls'. Until then, there will be nothing to stop management from just doing what it wants to do and saying "Can't do this" "Wont do that". NOTHING. Bottom line. What the hell juice is there at a wooden table if the leaders of this union haven't engaged the masses and did the sorta things that are spelled out in the Occupy 141 platform? It's a mouse's wheel where incompetence goes around and around. And there are a few Local Chairman and good ole boys who don't seem to grasp that fairly simple concept. The fate of a leading contract will be in the balance of

www.occupyiam141.com

Speaking of keeping the members in the dark I submit the following for consideration: Before negotiations opened, members at US Airways Fleet, were invited to submit contract proposals to the "negotiating committee" at DL 141. A window of time was made available to submit electronically or by mail. Were the results of the systemwide survey ever shared with the membership? If they were I must have missed it. It's dark in here!
ograc
 

necigrad

Veteran
Aug 21, 2007
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It's my understanding that the results are being kept confidential to not provide the company with an edge by knowing exactly what we want.